New challenge: earliest possible cultural victories

[TDK]

It is the 600AD!

My score in economy was -33 at the end, but I don't know how much of that actually counts in Commonwealth. Is -33 a lot?

I attached the game.

[Verily]

Originally Posted by TDK

It is the 600AD!

My score in economy was -33 at the end, but I don't know how much of that actually counts in Commonwealth. Is -33 a lot?

I attached the game.

Ah. The Chinese start with Music in the 600 AD start, so you can't get a free Great Artist from it.

[blizzrd]

Originally Posted by TDK

My score in economy was -33 at the end, but I don't know how much of that actually counts in Commonwealth. Is -33 a lot?

AFAIK, all of it counts whether you are in Commonwealth or not. If you were not in Commonwealth, your economy score would likely have been even lower.

The benefit of Commonwealth is to remove penalties for low amounts of traded resources (i.e. trade routes) but it doesn't do anything to prevent penalties for a stagnant economy (i.e. no growth of overall civ commerce).

[usi]

I have been also playing as Mali (600 AD), and actually stability does not seem to be a serious issue as long as we do not build any Carthagian city.
I successfully built four American cities, and my stability was still 17 after two recent revolutions (had five revolutions so far). The stability has almost always been solid before the two revolutions.

I have not won the game, but I'll probably give up this Malinese game (my PC is not good enough to have an enjoyable 20th C game), so I attach screenshots.

Once again, I have not won the game, the screenshots below are there to show that we can expand the Malinese empire outside of Africa.

[AnotherPacifist]

I think that having land (specifically, grassland) in general is better for Mali since you can cottage them. North Africa is mostly sea which cannot expand in terms of economy. Also, the rest of Africa is white on the settler map and happens to be contain the core area of Carthage, so I wouldn't be surprised that's the reason I collapsed when I occupied both North Africa and America. I think that after America appears, usi's expansion stability will take a dive.

Usi how did you get to America so early (before the Euros)? I see you have the usual 2 vassals in America and built New Orleans first.

[usi]

Actually I did not intend to get the two vassals, since I saw an Arabian caravel before I got Calender. It was probably 1200s, but I don't know the exact year.
I only intended to build four cities in North America in 1500s.

I got both Feudalism and Machinery from trades with Euro civs (DR + about 500 golds total).
I researched CS, Philosophy, and Paper before Guilds, since those are the techs Euros often do not have.
I got Guilds, Optics (pleased Vikings) and some other stuffs from trades.
Those techs and maps were also attractive enough to have them fight with one another. This must have slowed down their colonization too.
I was lucky to get conquerors (aka. great colonial city defenders) in Aztec (!), but not in Inca.

After I obtained Optics, I researched Astronomy, and it was done in 1550.
Bureaucracy + cottaged Wagadudu gave me about 150 beakers per turn, just by this city.
Actually I mistakenly assigned the two towns on flood plains to Daloa and Zaria too long, so it could have been researched earlier.
I quickly upgraded the galleys I have already built and sent them to NA with settlers, workers, and elephants.

[TDK]

Originally Posted by blizzrd

AFAIK, all of it counts whether you are in Commonwealth or not. If you were not in Commonwealth, your economy score would likely have been even lower.

The benefit of Commonwealth is to remove penalties for low amounts of traded resources (i.e. trade routes) but it doesn't do anything to prevent penalties for a stagnant economy (i.e. no growth of overall civ commerce).

Commonwealth does state that "No negative stability points for poor economy", what does that mean?
Do we know the threshold for "No negative stability points for low amount of traded resources" and is it counted against pop? I mean Mali should be able to trade away 9 resources from their spawn area and that seams like a lot for ~30 pop.

Originally Posted by Verily

Ah. The Chinese start with Music in the 600 AD start, so you can't get a free Great Artist from it.

Oh, so one should probably go directly for Liberalism and try to trade for one of the prereqs for Music.

[AnotherPacifist]

Yeah, the problem is that the AI will likely not trade for the tech that still doesn't have a wonder built with it, unless you're willing to go all the way to China for it.
I'm actually surprised the Vikings were willing to trade Optics with you (every time I see them they are pleased but their techs are always red, just like the Russians). You must have wiped the beer-saturated saliva off their smelly boots with your face.

[TDK]

Originally Posted by AnotherPacifist

Yeah, the problem is that the AI will likely not trade for the tech that still doesn't have a wonder built with it, unless you're willing to go all the way to China for it.
I'm actually surprised the Vikings were willing to trade Optics with you (every time I see them they are pleased but their techs are always red, just like the Russians). You must have wiped the beer-saturated saliva off their smelly boots with your face.

Yes, I find it's sometimes necessary to gift them a tech before they will actually trade something back. I also always vote for those two if possible for the +2 dip modifier.
You are right that Music is hard to trade for, but I think it's possible to trade for one of the prereqs and that should give you a shot at Lib.
If you get to Lib first I think the fastest way with Mali is Biology and National Park with 10 Forest Preserves. Possibly also Medicine for Sid's Sushi if you can trade for enough Seafood. Could be a fun game.

TDK

[blizzrd]

Two failed attempts in the last two days.

The first game I tried a slowly, slowly approach. Chose not to found Tikal but founded my capital one S of the Silver and Oaxaca one E of the Stone as my second city. Oaxaca built Temple of Kulkallan and I chose to miss the Calendar UHV requirement. Founded my third city on the New Orleans tile around 1100AD. Founded my fourth city on the Chicago tile and my fifth city on the Denver tile just before the Euros made contact with the new world.

The problem wasn't my stability, it was that it was going to take me another 500 turns for my 3 cultural cities to reach 50,000 cultural points. I was Stable (+1) in 1906AD with my five cities but only got my first religion in a city well after Sci Meth (and after Biology). Back to the drawing board.

The second game I founded Tikal on the spot and my second city on the New Orleans tile. New Orleans quickly built a new settler once it reached size 3 and this settler founded on the Chicago tile. Hooking up Iron early meant no problems from dog soldiers. Tikal built Temple of Kulkullan on the same turn that Japan was about to build it (had to reload about 10 turns to shave a turn off the build).

After 1500AD I spread out and founded all the way to 8 cities, enough to support 2 cathedrals for each religion. Cities 4-8 were on Denver, Duluth, Edmonton, Fort Albany and Havanna. Got Buddhism spread to Denver, Hinduism in Havanna and Confucianism in Fort Albany by 1700AD.

The problem was that once America spawned, my stability plummeted big time. I went from Stable (+3) to Unstable (-32) to a collapse of everything except my capital of Tikal in less than three turns in the late 1700s. All when I was just about to finish spreading my three religions between all of my cities too. Back to the drawing board again....

[youtien]

I got Babylon Culture Victory in 1940. The cities were Rutpa (SW of Babili), Ninua and Shushan(SE of original Shush).

Found Rutpa - 1 SW of Babili, made Sur quickly revolted in 2520 BC, Yerushalanym flipped in 1950 BC. I kept Sur, disbanded Yeru.

Later Egypt founded Judaism, I should be able to get it first next time.

India collapsed in turn 8x, then I built Oracle and chose Theology. Unfortunately Christinity was founded in Sur, which would flip to both Arabia and Turkey. Christinity became my only religion until I conquered Arabs.

Shushan flipped just before Persia spawn. Disbanded. Persian then found Shush on SE of the former Shushan.

I get "Greed" quest targetting the iron NW of Parsa. Completed it by conquering Persia around AD 555. Got me 11 swordsmen. Not bad. Got Parsa and Pura(Useless city, but I didn't want to raze it. Next time should keep it until it flips.)

In game one I used the swords to capture Dilli for Hinduism and Buddhism, but my stability soon became collapsing.

Arab spawn, flipping Sur, Rutba and Shush, this is too much. I refused, kept my army of elephants and spearsmen on NNE of Rutpa, kept the flipping area empty unless enemy approaching. Aftet 10 turns I made peace to Arabia.

Tech for Liberalism. Get Military Tradition as free tech, granting Curissair. Conquered Makkah and Sa'naa, got Islam.

The civics were HR - Bureaucracy - Slavery - OR - Commonwealth.

In 1280 Turkey spawned, flipping Sur, refused, war, retreat, killed 5 Cannons + trebuchets by Cuir. Made peace.

8 cities till the end: Rutpa, Sur, Ninua, Shush, Parsa, Pura, Makkah, Sa'naa. Forbidden Palace in Shush, Summer Palace in Ninua.

Economy was -49 to -55, why?? Later I adopted Representation - free market - Emanicipation(Stonehenge) and got 2 golden ages from Taj and Olympic. Revolt again to US - Free speech - later I got great depression, luckily I had 3 vassals that time, revolted to Mercantlism - Viceroyalty. Economy became horrible -90.

Got free spy from Communism (should be able to get Physics first as well but I didn't). The last tech I researched was Radio (for Eiffel).

[AnotherPacifist]

You're lucky you didn't collapse without Commonwealth. Give us a screenpic.

[youtien]

Screenshots here. Actually it is 1941.
I was trying again this morning, founded Judaism and Christinity in Sur. But didn't get Horseback Riding and Construction before 600 AD (should use Theocracy to trade with Rome, Greece, Persia and Carts), I think I'll lose to Arabs. Should restart.

Anyone else tried Rutpa start? You can build nearly all early wonders -- Great Lighthouse, Moai and Oracle in Sur, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Parthenon(or Artemis), Great Library in Rutpa. Also you could be very advanced with contacts to every other early civs.

Space race victory might be possible as well.

[AnotherPacifist]

Very nice. Lucky that you didn't lose a legendary city to independence due to your instability.

Looks like you killed the Persians anyway despite donating food to them.

[youtien]

Actually I did in the first game - Collapsed to civil war. Quickly I tried to recapture them. Ninua was 20000+ culture, when I recapture it, there was 9000+ left ; Shush was 20000+ as well, but when I recapture it, only 900+ left. I don't quite understand how it counts. Also I don't understand why Babylon's economy always become poor after midage. I adopted Commonwealth, but ecomony still went down and down, I don't know why. Too many towns? Imports / exports (were about 140/120, rank 1)?

In this second game I never went collapsing (below -40), luckily I had 5 vassals, good for viceroyalty.

Maybe the trade route and economic system are the imperfect parts of CIV4 and this great mod.

[AnotherPacifist]

Land-locked civs like Ethiopia and Babylon, and to some extent, Egypt, have the worst trade routes. Also, the fact that you probably have towns early on means you can't expand your economy, even if your economy is no.1 on earth. (just like the USA nowadays--Rhye does have a point I guess)

[youtien]

Land locked, yes. But who locks whom? It was Turkey that blocked between Europe and Asia, made Europeans desperate to sail around Africa and through Atlantics. Well... Rhye does have a point.

About this growing problem, can we use slavery to help this problem? Stalin: death solves all problems. No men, no problem.

[blizzrd]

Mayan cultural victory achieved in 1959AD. Cultural cities were Tikal, Uxmal and Mayapan.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Went for key world wonders this time as opposed to a race to Liberalism. Founded Tikal and Uxmal (New Orleans) with the starting settlers, then Mayapan (Chicago) in 660AD, Calakmul (Duluth) in 1080AD and finally Oxhuitza (Denver) in 1680AD once all the late game resources had spawned. This steady growth pattern was great for my stability keeping around or just below Stable/Shaky for most of the game. Finished the game in 1959 on Shaky (-13).

Spoiler:

Researched Sailing first to share resources via trade routes between Tikal and the rest of my empire. Then researched Code of Laws for the Temple of Kulkallan. Didn't try for the 1st UHV requirement of Calendar but got the Temple of Kulkallan in Tikal in 810AD for the 2nd. The 3rd requirement for a golden age and Triumphal Arch was straightforward in 1745AD.

After Code of Laws, tech research was Bronze Working, Iron Working, Mathematics, Calendar, Monarchy, Construction, Aesthetics, Archery, Alphabet, Literature, Drama, Philosophy (bulbed via Great Scientist) and Music.

Mayapan (Chicago) built Leaning Tower in 6 turns after Literature was learnt (with much chopping of forests) and the built Sistine Chapel after Music was learnt (more chopping of every remaining forest nearby). Uxmal (New Orleans) built Wat Wreah Pisnulok immediately after Philosophy was bulbed. All of these early wonders were crucial.

After Music, I researched towards Liberalism and traded the techs required for Optics from the Euros. The Euros didn't push for circumnavigation, which I managed to steal after buying Optics from the Dutch and racing some Caravels across the Pacific.

Missed Liberalism by about 10 turns to England. Once tech reached Liberalism, I learnt Constitution and Democracy and turned off research. Stole techs using espionage during the remainder of the game. Built the Statue of Liberty in 16 turns in Oxhuitza (Denver).

I finally got my first religion (Buddhism) in 1727. Quickly this was followed by Confucianism in 1730 and Taoism (Apostolic Palace) in 1772. Spread each of these religions to all my cities and built one cathedral in each of the cultural cities.

Vassalized Aztecs (voluntary) in mid 1400s but refused all other requests for vassals after that. Demanded and on-traded all Aztec resources to help with economy throughout the game.

Right at the end, New York flipped to me (which I disbanded). Washington was also in terrible trouble, completely surrounded by my cultural borders.

[AnotherPacifist]

Very nice blizzrd. I don't know how the Chinese did it, but somehow they got Emperor UHV which is amazing to me. Maya is so bad in terms of trade and because they spawn so early, their economy has time to stagnate unlike the Aztecs and Incans.

[blizzrd]

Originally Posted by AnotherPacifist

Maya is so bad in terms of trade and because they spawn so early, their economy has time to stagnate unlike the Aztecs and Incans.

Around Tikal, sure the economy stagnates unless you eventually get Biology to clear some jungle. But by building new cities over a long period and developing the surrounding tiles slowly (I only ever had 4 workers at the one time) I managed to keep my economy at least 2 stars well into the 20th century.

Getting Astronomy for trade routes around the world is also important, as is building embassies to maintain contacts with the Afro-Eurasian civs.