VIKINGS! Plundering and ravaging....

[KROL]

Today I decided to start a new game as the Vikings, since I haven't played as them before. After looking at Ragnar's traits, unique unit, and unique building, I decided that the Vikings are best suited to playing on an Archipelago map. Financial puts me in a great position to exploit those sea tiles for huge commerce, and Aggressive (combined with barracks) allows me to pump out brand new units with two promotions. The unique unit (berserkers) is like a combo swordsman/axeman with higher base strength, and it starts out with the Amphibious promotion, so as soon as I get Civil Service, I'll be able to do some major damage to my islander neighbors. And the unique building is a buffed up Lighthouse that gives ships built there a free navigation promotion.

So I'm playing through a Prince game as the Vikings, and I'd be thrilled if some of you guys could comment on my strategy and even give me some advice for what to do next. And feel free to play along.

So let's roll up an archipelago and let the plundering begin!! YEARGHH!!

Difficulty: Prince
Leader: Ragnar
Map Size: Standard
Map type: Archipelago - Tiny Islands
No barbarians (There'd be no where for them to spawn, anyway)
No espionage. Locked modified assets.
Beyond The Sword with HOF mod.

I actually didn't use mapfinder for this one, but got lucky with a decent start.



As this is my first time posting a game on here, I don't actually know how to put those little labels on the resources. Anyone care to help me out with that one? In any case, I have 3 CLAM resources (1NE, 1N, and 2NW) one SUGAR resource (2N) and one RICE resource in my BFC. I decided to settle in place, and I felt quite happy with my starting position.

I started building a barracks while I waited for my population to grow. Since those clam tiles would provide 4 food and 4 commerce once improved with fishing boats, I decided to make Work Boats a priority. So once my population grew to 2, I started doing this alternating pattern of build a Work Boat, improve a clam, work the clam until the population grows, then build a work boat, improve the clam, let the population grow, etc. until I had a population of 4 in my capital.

I also built a worker to improve that rice resource after I discovered agriculture, which I think was a waste since I have yet to actually work that tile. You live, you learn. That worker came in handy soon, though.

Here's a couple screenshots from the Work Boat Era:

Spoiler:

Now here's where I started getting worried. I didn't found my second city until 1940 BC. I've attached that saved game in addition to the 4000 BC save. Part of the reason for this late expansion was that the unsettled land on my capital's island SUCKED. It was jungle and grasslands, with no resources that I would be able to use any time soon. Fortunately, my galley had discovered this JUICY little island to the northeast that had access to both a clam resource AND a copper resource. Arguably the best part about this island is that it was extremely close to my capital, so maintenance costs would be minimal.

So I founded my second city, Uppsala, next to the copper. Here's a screenshot of its strategic location

Spoiler:

I moved my worker from the capital, Nidaros, up to Uppsala in order to get that copper working ASAP. I researched The Wheel during this time, and managed to get the mine and road built fairly quickly. Once I finished the barracks there, I started building axemen in Uppsala. I decided to keep producing useful buildings in Nidaros, since I didn't want to fall behind technologically.

Once I had two axemen, I promoted one with the Cover Promotion, and the other with City Raider. I loaded them on my galley and shipped them off west to take out Asoka, since I had a feeling he'd founded Buddhism (my state religion) and built its holy shrine. I didn't find him anywhere nearby, though, but I DID find Willem De Oranje.

Spoiler:

As you can see in the screenshot, the Dutch had some warriors walking around. WARRIORS?! This late in the game?!

I declared war on the Dutch, and landed my little army. My gambit of only sending two axemen paid off, because Amsterdam was defended by a meager two warrior units.

Spoiler:

I didn't even consider razing Amsterdam. It had farmed corn resource, a pastured cow resource, and (GASP!) an iron resource! I wasn't surprised that Mr. Moneybags Oranje had built a cottage over the iron. The scrawny wimp probably hadn't researched iron working yet.

So I took the city.

Spoiler:

Once the resistance ended, I had the worker I'd captured build a mine over that iron resource, and then I had swordsmen on the brain. I built a barracks, then two swordsmen and loaded them onto the ship. I gave them each a Cover promotion, because I figured Asoka must have archers by now. I mean, come on, this is Prince difficulty.

Spoiler:

I was wrong. Here's a screenshot of my swordsmen right outside Delhi, giggling like schoolgirls as they look at TWO WARRIOR units guarding the Indian Capital! Ridiculous. I was embarrassed for Asoka, but I mercilessly took his prized Holy City from him. If it were Saladin in his place, you'd better believe he would've put up more of a fight than that.

THE PRESENT STATE OF THE EMPIRE:

So that brings us to the present state of affairs. The glorious Viking kingdom boasts four ports, with a total of half a million people. That's a lot of Vikings.

Nidaros looks like it could become a GREAT super science city, but for some reason it's not doing so great in terms of beaker production. I have two scientist specialists working there, and a library, yet it's only producing 32 beakers per turn. That sounds low, because usually my super science cities are producing one or two hundred beakers per turn. I'm thinking I need to try and snatch up the Great Library for this city. Fortunately, it'll be generating a Great Scientist soon enough, so that'll help.

Uppsala is definitely stagnant. I have them building a library, since that will boost the culture and science output. Once the cultural borders of that city grow, they'll be able to work that clam resource, and it'll grow pretty quickly.

Amsterdam is looking GOOOOD... but I'm not sure what to do with it. It seems like it would be well-suited as a military unit-production city.

I haven't really contemplated yet what to do with Delhi - I just conquered it.

The Indians only have one city left, so I'm going to raze that real quickly to get rid of them. After that, I should only have like 4 or 5 opponents left, so I might be able to get a conquest victory out of this.

In addition, it seems as though I might be the most technologically advanced civ in the game right now. That's a pleasant surprise.

I'm taking a break from this game for a while, but any advice would be MUCH appreciated. Specifically, I'm looking for advice on:

1. How to specialize these cities.
2. What kind of victory to go for.
3. What techs to research.
4. And just general strategy for how to handle this game from here.

I've attached the most recent save (700 BC) so you all can take a look at it and play along, or even load up the 4000 BC one and play from the beginning and compare with my humble efforts.

Being the Vikings on an archipelago map is turning out to be really fun though, so I'd recommend playing it.

[KROL]

A couple more notes for the benefit of any who might just read and post advice:

1. I (surprisingly) managed to found Confucianism in Amsterdam, so I've changed my state religion to Confucianism.

2. Currently, I'm running the Caste System civic. I find that this is essential for a specialist-based economy.

[Joshua368]

Sounds like the game is trying to tell you to move up to monarch.

Also I can't see why you didn't found Uppsala one or two tiles north... you wasted two fine grassland tiles for boring coast. Wuh?

[KROL]

Originally Posted by Joshua368

Sounds like the game is trying to tell you to move up to monarch.

Also I can't see why you didn't found Uppsala one or two tiles north... you wasted two fine grassland tiles for boring coast. Wuh?

Not only that, but it caused me to have to wait until the border expanded before having access to that clam tile. Uppsala is poorly-located, and that's caused its growth to be stunted. I was in such a hurry to get my hands on that copper that I didn't think about it. It's a mistake I won't soon make again.

I usually play on Emperor or Monarch, but this is the first time I've played as the Vikings. It's also the first time I've played on an archipelago, so I figured it'd be best to test the waters (no pun intended) by playing it on Prince.

Seriously, though... 700 BC, and the Indians don't have any archers? That's unheard of on Prince.

[Joshua368]

Originally Posted by KROL

Seriously, though... 700 BC, and the Indians don't have any archers? That's unheard of on Prince.

The AI sucks on archipelagos. They tech poorly, expand poorly, and can barely wage war. If you're a financial civ, expecially with a water-boosted UB (willem, ragnar, hannibal) it's a cake walk. Like, liberalism to assembly line cakewalk.

Grab the Great Lighthouse and its unlimited expansion, it's like playing a level or two behind. Probably should have tested the waters on Immortal.

[KROL]

And there's the rub, sir - I'm not used to building a lot of coastal cities. Thusly, I forgot to grab Masonry early enough to build the Great Lighthouse. Someone else built it before I could finish it. A setback, to be sure.

Things have definitely taken a couple of interesting turns in the last thousand years or so. I'm about to hit the sack, but I'll post the update tomorrow. I think I can grab the Great Lighthouse in the next few turns via conquest.

Quick question: if I can see a lighthouse on the world map outside of an enemy's city, that means he has the Great Lighthouse, right? I don't imagine a normal lighthouse would show up like that.

[Joshua368]

Originally Posted by KROL

Quick question: if I can see a lighthouse on the world map outside of an enemy's city, that means he has the Great Lighthouse, right? I don't imagine a normal lighthouse would show up like that.

Both the Great and regular lighthouses show up... you can see all the buildings inside a city from the outside if you look close enough. You can tell the Great Lighthouse apart though because it's, well, great. All big and made of stone and whatnot. Also the regular lighthouse will be there too, so you'll see two lighthouses.

[Gliese 581]

All you need to do is basically build The Great Lighthouse and spam cities along the coast, preferably on different landmasses to get intercontinental trade routes bonuses.

[UncleJJ]

From what I can see of the map the Collossus will be more useful than TGL. If you're at war with everyone or unfriendly TGL is only worth +4 commerce which is nice but not game breaking. In fact once you get to about 12 cities the maintenance costs (of all cities) outweigh the trade income unless you have courthouses nearly everywhere. Once each of your cities is working more than 4 sea tiles (seafood, coastal or even ocean) the Collossus gives more income than TGL. Of course there's no reason why you shouldn't have both if you can build or capture them.

Monarchy should be a priority for your capital to allow you to work more tiles and to be a source of better internal trade routes. That capital needs to get to size 15 quickly and become an economic powerhouse

[dubrown]

Just a few things. Why start with Barracks, there's no threat so early that makes barracks worth it as first build. If you start with fishing (I don't remember if Ragnar does that or not) you should on this map has made a workboat your first build, remember, a city grows while building workboats, it's only with workers and settlers that food is converted to hammers. For future reference in my book it's, in most cases (with exception of workboat cases), worth it to start with a worker, even at popsize 1 if you'll have anything for the worker to do when it's finished.

About TGL or Colossus, on prince, it should be possible to claim both wonders without too much effort.

[KROL]

Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with coastal cities. My empires tend to be made up of primarily landlocked cities. So I didn't realize that workboats don't use up excess food and prevent growth. I'll keep it in mind from now on.

Since there weren't any camp resources nearby, there would have been nothing for an early worker to do.

[Skallagrimson]

Yeah, the pop-grower on a coast is workboats. I build those even if I don't have seafood (they can explore too), and then when the population pops, build workers/settlers. Galleys when you get sailing, etc.

Colossus is never > GLH, IMO. 2 trade routes is HUGE and you got it going on until Corporation. And you'll be beelining Astro anyway which nukes your Colossus. Boar hog breasts of a wonder there.

[KROL]

Here's an update for how I managed to screw up a great start lol.

After taking Delhi (and thereby destroying my second opponent) I decided to rest and build up my strength. I focused on improving my economy and my research output, with the goal of getting to Civil Service.

I discovered Code of Laws around the same time I conquered Delhi, and managed to found Confucianism. Soon after, Nidaros spawned my first Great Scientist. I used him to lightbulb philosophy, then I switched to Pacifism. This allowed me to get two more Great Scientists out of Nidaros within the next few hundred years. The first one I used to lightbulb paper, and then I traded maps with Suleiman. This essentially revealed the entire map to me.

And so too late do I realize how powerful the Holy Roman Empire and Egypt have become. Ramesses is almost finished building the Apostolic Palace, and I just can't get to him with a large enough force to take him out. I now have my Berzerkers, but they turned out to be not so effective this late in the game. The Berzerker is like an amphibious Praetorian, but you get them much later than you do swordsmen/Praetorians.

So now I face two great empires and their mediocre vassals, and I have a measly four cities at 500 AD. I realize now that I was amazingly not aggressive enough. I frequently get Emperor conquest victories in the BC era with warmonger leaders, so early aggression is usually a strength of mine. I'm kicking myself in the butt for this one.

I think my strategy was pretty solid until I took Delhi. After Delhi, I should have built three or four more galleys full of swordsmen and sent them out in all directions. Just conquer, conquer, and conquer some more. I would probably use my first great general to make my highest-production city build units 50% faster, then use that city to constantly churn out three-promotion units until the end of time.

If the game got to the point where I finished researching Civil Service and Machinery, then I could upgrade some of my veteran swordsmen to berzerkers and keep going. But the entire conquest strategy should not be based around a berzerker rush.

The way I played it was as if a UU rush was the way to go. This is fine with someone like Cyrus or Julius Caesar, where you get really powerful UU's really early, but the berzerker is really not that powerful in the Medieval era. The berzerkers should be considered a pleasant bonus in the Medieval era, and that's it.

In addition to that, I really need to become more well-versed in coastal city development. That was another of my downfalls. I'm used to playing on Continents or Pangaea.

Seeing as how I'd really like to add the Vikings to my repertoire, I'm going to try another game as Ragnar on Archipelago some time in the next couple days. I'll probably keep the difficulty at Prince for the second try, but it might shift it up to Monarch - it shouldn't be TOO much different from a normal swordsman rush.

For the sake of convenience, I'll post that game in this thread, as well. I'll probably post the saves from my failed attempt as well.

[Joshua368]

Try making settlers next time?

[KROL]

Originally Posted by Joshua368

Try making settlers next time?

That too

[KROL]

Okay, I rolled up a new game, and this time I'd like to play through it more slowly. Given my relative inexperience in coastal economy and early-game seafaring, I'll be stopping to ask advice at crucial moments and posting regular updates on the game.


Difficulty: Monarch
Leader: Ragnar
Map Size: Standard
Map type: Archipelago - Tiny Islands
No barbarians (There'd be no where for them to spawn, anyway)
No espionage. Locked modified assets.
Beyond The Sword with HOF mod.



I actually like this start. The BFC of my capital will have three different food resources, which will provide for easy, fast expansion of the population in that city. The only production will have to come from those hills, though.

Moving my settler at all will be using up an entire turn, so I'm going to settle in place.

I'll build some work boats while growing the population. It looks like I've got a decent-size island here, so I can probably found a second city before setting off across the ocean.

I'm thinking I'll end up running quite a few specialists in the capital - scientists, of course. Code of Laws will be a priority, so I can get Caste System.

As far as wonders go, I want to nab the Great Lighthouse this time. I could research sailing and masonry really early, and get it no problem.

Tomorrow morning I'll play the first thousand years or so and post the update.

Advice?

[Joshua368]

>Build Great Lighthouse
>Spam settlers indefinitely, particularly overseas
>Profit!

Enjoy the wonders of founding a brand new city and having your gold per turn go up.

[Stewie0416]

Originally Posted by Joshua368

>Build Great Lighthouse
>Spam settlers indefinitely, particularly overseas
>Profit!

Enjoy the wonders of founding a brand new city and having your gold per turn go up.

That has never happened to me. In my current game I build the GLH but every time i build a coastal city I lose 5-10gpd! Whats going on?

[Joshua368]

Originally Posted by Stewie0416

That has never happened to me. In my current game I build the GLH but every time i build a coastal city I lose 5-10gpd! Whats going on?

Possibly foreign trade routes, you need open borders with happy neighbors (bonuses for foreign trade, intercontinental trade, and extended peace) to make this happen. Domestic oversea trade routes are nice but aren't quite as powerful.

And I'm sure eventually maitenance costs can overweigh the commerce, though your raw science will still rise immediately with each city.

[Stewie0416]

Ohh no wonder, the only other Civ i no is toku.....