New Amurite Fun

[orgonebox]

Figured I would initiate a thread in homage to Govannon's awesome new "teach spellcasting" ability.

As you might expect, whiners have already appeared suggesting that being able to teach all level one spells Govannon knows to applicable units (i.e. everything not animal or undead) is overpowered. Nonsense! It simply opens up a whole new realm of strategy for the Amurites. Just think of the wacky fun you can have with water-walking firebows and mist-form chucking (and water-walking) druids. Or better yet, give a horseman spring, scorch, and blaze and send him on a peaceful mission to ruin your neighbor's territory. Those desert shrines don't do you much good now that you're surrounded by plains, right Varn? Or how about starving the enemy out by turning all their terrain to desert - or even their starting city tile prior to declaring war, reducing defenses? Then let Mr. Magic Horse set fire to all the vegetation.

But the primary reason none of this is overpowered is that the Amurites lose an arch-mage hero and instead gain that all-out magic democracy that Govannon is supposed to represent. Figure that while Govannon is spending his promotions on rank one spells, he isn't earning combat promotions toward twincasting, or even picking up a level three spell. The obvious offset is that once an adept has been trained with all the rank one spells, you can promote them to combat IV in order to make them a mage (w/ the Cave of Ancestors).

The only thing left is to give Ratha and Radiant Guards the channeling two promotion. I want a water-walking, fireball-chucking chariot!

[Caradoc]

Something I've noticed is that with the new Adepts able to get all their spells from Govannon, they get to spend their promotions on the way up the Mage on things like Mobility, Combat, and Spell Extension. This makes them stronger than other Mages who presumably will spend some levels on spells. They also start their careers with some useful spells that help them level up faster.

[seZereth]

Originally Posted by Caradoc

Something I've noticed is that with the new Adepts able to get all their spells from Govannon, they get to spend their promotions on the way up the Mage on things like Mobility, Combat, and Spell Extension. This makes them stronger than other Mages who presumably will spend some levels on spells. They also start their careers with some useful spells that help them level up faster.

so, finally the amurites got their magic not only flavourwise

[xienwolf]

And it is even further encouragement to diversify your mana supply. Double up to get a few free ones on Govannon, but then 2 mana is a waste of time, only at 3 or more do you get anything free. So you now have Cave + Govannon encouraging spreading out your mana types available.

[megamanx06]

Originally Posted by Caradoc

They also start their careers with some useful spells that help them level up faster.

that gave me an idea... maybe instead of randomly gifting exp to arcane units, casting a spell could give 1 exp. since you can only cast one spell per turn, it couldn't really be abused...

[Grey Fox]

Originally Posted by megamanx06

that gave me an idea... maybe instead of randomly gifting exp to arcane units, casting a spell could give 1 exp. since you can only cast one spell per turn, it couldn't really be abused...

Would become awkward after a while. Choosing between automatically getting xp or casting a spell with every spellcaster every turn just to get xp (cause that's what I and most would do) I pick auto xp.

[Merddyn]

Be glad you start with Metamagic mana, too, which makes it far easier to use even a single mana node to get Govannon all those pretty colors. Er, I mean, mana types.

... I really need to get around to playing more than a hundred turns or so.

[orgonebox]

I've discovered that werewolves can learn spells as well. The cooler thing is archers that can cast wall of stone, and firebows that can stoneskin. I've also got an army of cultists - nothing new for an amurite strategy, but my current cultist force can also cast blinding light, charm person, and summon hosts of the einherjar. Pure wickedness.

So in multiplayer, assuming you haven't gone for the early kill on the Amurites, how would you counter all these crazy magic units?

[Verdian]

So in multiplayer, assuming you haven't gone for the early kill on the Amurites, how would you counter all these crazy magic units?

Use promotions that increase your resistance to magic? And lots of assassins. Of course, stone skin and some of the summons will still be a problem.

Remember the building "Ring of Warding"? I really liked that building.

[Monkeyfinger]

Or beat them in a magic war using fireball golems, Dwarven Druids, High Priests of Winter, or Empyrean units. Your mages will be much fewer in number than theirs (or in the case of the golems, a little fewer), but also much more effective.

I don't see why one wouldn't go for that pre-arcane lore kill anyway. Not only do you know what happens if the Amurites tech that far, but they're an incredibly easy target before that point, which lasts a while because thier tech speed isn't that great either.

[Grey Fox]

Originally Posted by Monkeyfinger

which lasts a while because thier tech speed isn't that great either.

Say that to Dain with a sage farm.

[Sarisin]

I just had to end my game with the Amurites - my first .40 game and sadly it died a MAF death around turn 850.

Still, it was the first time I played that civ in a long time and it was probably the most fun game I have played in FFH. There are just so many possibilities with Govannon and your spellcasters which include just about any unit.

As I mentioned in another thread, just about the whole game I had 6 civs at war with me. They constantly threw small-medium stacks at me, later with Tier IV units, and I was easily able to defend against them with my strong, veteran units supported by spellcasters.

One complaint: I kept losing archmages' ability to cast the Domination spell. I'd say it was successful only about 50% of the time. The good thing was I was able to get an archmage with that spell again after about 20 turns.

This enabled me to add quite few Tier IV units from barbs and attacking AI. I had Brujahs, Dwarven War Chariots, Orc Berserkers, Lizard Beastmasters, etc. It's too bad Domination doesn't work on Angel units as the Mercurians were sending lots of Seraphs, Ophiums, and Heralds my way.

I also had a few units with Command III and that worked without the risk of losing an ability.

In all, I have to put the Amurites up there now as one of my favorite civs to play.

[Monkeyfinger]

sage farm.

And what tech enables those?

[Khai]

hahahahahahahahaha i like it.

[someone67]

Originally Posted by megamanx06

that gave me an idea... maybe instead of randomly gifting exp to arcane units, casting a spell could give 1 exp. since you can only cast one spell per turn, it couldn't really be abused...

Create spellstaf -> Break spellstaf -> Create spellstaf -> Break spellstaf...

[orgonebox]

Originally Posted by Monkeyfinger

And what tech enables those?

Philosophical trait enables cheap elder councils and libraries as well as doubled great people points, starting with mysticism. You can either start popping techs with the sages and work your way toward sorcery while researching other techs or start piling those sages in one city. Settle the first sage, have the next build an academy, and you're on your way.

Valledia isn't that bad if you want to pursue a solid war foundation. Just tech toward military strategy, build form of the titan along the way, and turn your cities into unit factories. Personally, I would rather use Valledia than Dane just for the fact that maintenance can cripple your war efforts if you have to keep strategic cities.

[westamastaflash]

Originally Posted by xienwolf

And it is even further encouragement to diversify your mana supply. Double up to get a few free ones on Govannon, but then 2 mana is a waste of time, only at 3 or more do you get anything free. So you now have Cave + Govannon encouraging spreading out your mana types available.

Once you have Gov with all lvl 1 spells, select the few that you want for free for your Mages, and switch to those :-D

[Monkeyfinger]

Originally Posted by orgonebox

Philosophical trait enables cheap elder councils and libraries as well as doubled great people points, starting with mysticism. You can either start popping techs with the sages and work your way toward sorcery while researching other techs or start piling those sages in one city. Settle the first sage, have the next build an academy, and you're on your way.

Wrong answer, you just described what every leader can do, with Dain getting like 1 extra great sage in that long time period before sage farms exist.

The correct answer was "Arcane Lore." You know, that tech Dain needs to try and hit ANYWAY to be competitive, and has a long road to.

[MagisterCultuum]

I always make the Philosophical trait allow building Academies directly once you research Arcane Lore, just like Organized allows Command Posts after Military Strategy.

[AngelGabriel]

A good indicator that this new ability is kinda imbalanced is that even I'm able to win a war. Until I were able to magify my champions I never conquered more than two cities with my mages. Then I had to wait to heal up and almost always got a huge counter army (I'm no good player at all). Nowadays I march right through the enemies borders and don't even loose one single magician or fighter. I fought mostly against pyre zombies which almost always gave me one or two headaches (Yay he's dead - yay ... my mages,too.).

So without whining: Yes, that new ability is pretty cool, stylish and gives the Amurites a very individual factor, but it's kinda imbalanced.