Prebuilding?

[RegentBob]

Are most people hypocritical, or does prebuilding suck?

There are no shortage of complaints about movement rates/limits, border violations, corruption, etc. But unless people got tired of complaining about it long ago, what's the deal with prebuilding?

How can anybody not see how ridiculous it is to spend a century building The Great Pyramids, only to switch it at the last moment to The Great Library instead.

"Ok everybody, there's been a slight change of plans. Let's get this mummy out of the way here, yeah just put him over there, and the rest of you grab a stack of books. Also, do we have any aspiring writers here today?"

Or maybe you find out somebody else just finished The Colossus.

"Wait, wait, hold everything! Okay now, off with his head! NO! WAIT!!! Not him! The statue, take the head off the statue! Why? Well, you see it's like this. We've decided to put a really big light on top instead."

It seems no matter how hard I try, some other civ always comes out of nowhere to steal the great wonder i was just about to complete! Where's the option to prevent civs from switching production? It's would be okay if you were only a quarter finished and you had a sudden change of plans. And I'm not complaining about using a leader to "rush build" great wonders. But come on! Is this really fair, or are we being hypocritical because we've learned how to take advantage of the system?

[BCLG100]

i think waht happens is once you have enough shields it starts being built so they just assume that all the shields are matertials which can be used on other things

[Pygzilla]

Of course it would be more realistic if there was a shield penalty for switching production. Say half. I hate the Wonder cascade.

[Wombat_Hair]

Like your thinking BCLG100, but disagree.
Prebuilding really seems like a cheat to me.

[Baleog]

Prebuilding is a kind of cheat, but I think more people would be complaining if it was removed. At least among those familiar with the civ series for years. Possibly. Maybe they wouldn't complain, because it would look like they're taking the easy route.

Anyway for the moment I choose to live with the burden of this intolerable cheat and not complain.

[Yzman]

Then you might as well say that you cannot switch anything to something else without wasting all the sheilds. I think it is more of a gathering of the materials for the project then actually building it.

[warpstorm]

I think that there should be a penalty of some sort, not all the shields, maybe half.

[Zachriel]

It's not a cheat as long as the option is available to the AI.

It may not be realistic, but it makes the game flow much more smoothly. It's like the game design that one leader lives for 6000 years and has absolute power over all national affairs. You can still lose wonder races, by the way, and then you would lose all your shields.

[RegentBob]

You can still lose wonder races, by the way, and then you would lose all your shields.

Just think about it though. If you couldn't switch and it took you all those years to build it, it would REALLY be a Great Wonder then. And all those other civs, would just be forgotten.

Sort of like those mini-pyramids, or whatever, down in Central America. I mean what were those people thinking? Didn't they know about the Egyptians?

[WillJ]

Like Zachriel said, I think being able to change production makes the game a lot smoother than not being able to, even if it means less realism. I would get REALLY frustrated at times if I couldn't change production.

[MummyMan]

I agree with Zachriel and Willyj. Reality sometimes has to be sacrificed to make the game more fun and playable. Maybe the penalty could only apply to wonders? Not all of the shields should be lost, maybe 10%. It also depends on how you look at the process of production. Yzman said it best when he said that it is more the gathering of materials. But that doesn't really matter, just that there can be other perceptions of "production"

[TheNiceOne]

Being able to change production surely makes the game much smoother, but especially with wonder building it seems pretty gamey and unrealistic (not that CIV has ever been very realistic).

I have therefore had an idea (that will probably never be implemented) regarding building wonders:

1) You should never be able to change production to a great wonder and keep the already produced shields.

However:

2) All great wonders should have a small wonder of the same kind. The small wonder should cost slightly less, have less effect and produce much less culture. Those small wonders are only available to be built after the great wonder is built by another civ, and the civ having the great wonder cannot build the small.

3) When one civ finishes a great wonder, the other civs that have started building that great wonder may switch production to the accompanying small wonder. In effect, they complete what they started, but since it is not the first or greatest in the world it has less impact.

[stachnie]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
2) All great wonders should have a small wonder of the same kind. The small wonder should cost slightly less, have less effect and produce much less culture. Those small wonders are only available to be built after the great wonder is built by another civ, and the civ having the great wonder cannot build the small.

Hmmm... how do you imagine "less effect" e.g. for Pyramids, Great Library, the Art of War or Hoover's Dame? Maybe they should last until the city reaches a certain size or (for the wonders that expire) expire faster?


Regards,

Slawomir Stachniewicz.

[TheNiceOne]

Well, that's the problem. For some of the great wonders it should be quite easy to come up with a less effective small wonder:

Small wonder pyramids could give you free support of grainaries, but not build them for you, or half the production cost of granaries, or it could work only on the same continent or only for cities withing a certain radius of the pyramid.

Art of War is already restricted to the same continent, but the other ideas as for pyramids could work, like free upkeep and/or production of barracks for half cost (quartered if militaristic).

Same for Hoover Dam...

The not so Great Libraries could make research cost (and thereby the cost of buying from an AI) half of what it would otherwise be if two other known civs have the tech.


...an so on.

This will have to benefits. First, it makes much more sense that you don't have to abandon something you've almost completed (or cannot start building it) just because some civ on the other side of the world has built it.

Secondly, it helps balancing the game, since while it will still be preferred to have the original, you will not be screwed because you can build the copy instead.

['Copter Pilot]

Less effect could be that you can built barracks (or whatever) for half price everywhere.

[Pembroke]

I think that TheNiceOne's idea is good. Pretty darned good, in fact. For game play reasons it would be ruinous to have to lose everything you have poured into a wonder if you are not the winner of the race. Having "second greatest" wonders would be a good solution: it is not a total loss, but you don't have to suspend your belief too much, either.

As for the effects, how about this:

1st builder: all the effects plus culture
2nd builder: no effects, 1/2 culture
3rd builder: no effects, 1/3 culture
4th builder: no effects, 1/4 culture
etc.

Make the 2nd and 3rd place count, too!

Or would 1/n culture be too little as a benefit?

[Chieftess]

Then what about wonders that only give 2cpt?

[Pillager]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
Well, that's the problem. For some of the great wonders it should be quite easy to come up with a less effective small wonder:

Small wonder pyramids could give you free support of grainaries, but not build them for you, or half the production cost of granaries, or it could work only on the same continent or only for cities withing a certain radius of the pyramid.

Art of War is already restricted to the same continent, but the other ideas as for pyramids could work, like free upkeep and/or production of barracks for half cost (quartered if militaristic).

Same for Hoover Dam...

The not so Great Libraries could make research cost (and thereby the cost of buying from an AI) half of what it would otherwise be if two other known civs have the tech.


...an so on.

This will have to benefits. First, it makes much more sense that you don't have to abandon something you've almost completed (or cannot start building it) just because some civ on the other side of the world has built it.

Secondly, it helps balancing the game, since while it will still be preferred to have the original, you will not be screwed because you can build the copy instead.

That's a good idea. Much more sensible than the current arrangement.

[sabo]

Originally posted by Wombat_Hair
Like your thinking BCLG100, but disagree.
Prebuilding really seems like a cheat to me.

the AI does it too so how can it be considered cheating if everyone does it?

[DaDoo]

The idea of having a small wonder to every great wonder sounds nice but it'll lessen the distinct edge that you get by building that great wonder everybody wants. As for prebuilding goes, I don't mind it.