How many cities do I REX?

[tibbles]

After a long civ break, I pulled out the game again, and my early game could use some tweaking. First off, my economy never crashes (research stays above 60%) and I have a hard time getting the min number of cities for wonders like Oxford. Usually I have a few great cities, then need to plant a couple poor ones just for university count. So I'm guessing I need to build more cities early.

But, I never feel like I have the terrain to place that many early on. Am I cherry picking too much and should just plunk more down for early growth?

What's an average number of cities to aim for as a financial civ (currently trying out Victoria) that's looking to play a more peaceful tech race?

Ok, I know the answer is it depends But I'm just looking for a ballpark for these game settings:

Classic - cant find my expansion CDs
Monarch or Emperor - used to play emp, downgraded to monarch while I relearn
Random AIs (I play 5 on standard or 7-8 on huge)
Some form of more land-based - continents, pangea, etc

And for once I locate my CDs, would you change your ballpark city count in either expansion?

[Skallagrimson]

You might just be getting bad maps (you know the ones: you're at the end of a peninsula of tundra, beyond which is desert, THANKS FOR NOTHING, MAP DEMONS!!!)

I've grown to like the "regenerate map" feature more and more each day.

[DaveMcW]

Build a city next to every food resource (floodplains count, sheep don't).

[Skallagrimson]

Cows don't either.

[vicawoo]

What's wrong with grassland sheep?

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by vicawoo

What's wrong with grassland sheep?

Nothing, although I rarely see them other than cap BFCs. They're just as good as irrigated rice (other than the health bonus is weaker for much of the game - every city gets a granary, it takes much longer to have supermarkets or whatever).

[Phatkarp]

I have the same problem you have in games where I follow my peaceful builder instincts. In games where I conquer someone I find that I have plenty of quality cities.

[Skallagrimson]

About 1 game in 4 I'm given huge tracts of sweet land that the AI either can't or won't take right away. That's REX time. If the slider is over 30% and there's more good land, keep at it. Fix the economy later.

About 3 games in 4 I'm too boxed in and don't have anything to REX into. Then it's early war time.

[Tephros]

Sheep next to a river are good if you're financial - basically the same as a crab or clam resource for a non-coastal city. Definitely no worse than deer. But it's more a matter of having at least one tile that can produce more than 4 food, IMO. So floodplains would not count, but I'd be okay with it if there was more than one floodplains even if there were no food resources. Not that I always have the luxury of choosing.

On huge if you're going for a peaceful victory about 12 cities should be adequate. If you're still negative at 50% research, consider delaying further expansion and working on building markets, courthouses, etc. As Victoria, though, you might want to get into at least one war, preferably pre-longbow, so that your military city can produce decent units via settled great general in order to stave off late-game invasion attempts. Imperialistic seems like a waste if you never get into a war. The settler bonus is nice, but not comparable to other traits on its own.

[colony]

For my early cities I like to have 1 5 food tile, 2 flood plains, a 4 food tile and some riverside grassland or any sort of combination of these. Basically enough surplus food that it can quickly grow to size 4/5+, work a couple of mines or support some specialists.

If you want to play a peaceful game I'd try to get about 7-10 cities on a standard map, but even this will require rushing your neighbour or some REXing most of the time. You have to be willing to change what your doing if you get boxed in or start next to an aggressive AI. I don't like expanding a lot pre-Writing, but once you have it the 2 scientists per city can keep your tech rate going for long enough to reach Alphabet and Currency, as long as you can pay for city maintenance and unit upkeep you should be able to not fall too far behind while you recover. Try expanding enough to get your slider down to 20-40% for a game or two, just as a test, and see how well you can keep up in tech. You might be surprised.

[Gumbolt]

I think I should add counter the science beakers per turn not the science percentage.

I think about 8 cities by 1 ad is fine on a huge map.

It all depends on play style. If you grow capital to size 6 then you can spam settler in 8-10 turns maybe. Whipping too.

If you chop like mad you could get 3-4 cities by 2000bc.

Imperialistic does help rexxing. Best leader for rexxing is JoaII due to traits.

[tibbles]

I'll mention first, classic Victoria is Expansive/Financial (that or I listed the wrong leader name ) So no traits for early warfare and no great generals.

But to clarify, when you say:
"Build a city next to every food resource (floodplains count, sheep don't)."

I guess my issue is what to do when you can plant either 2 ok cities or 1 great city. My natural instinct is to plant great ones with great bfcs. Then I often realize I have 1-2 too few :P Maybe err on the side of more cities with good initial crosses for more early production?

[Gumbolt]

Originally Posted by tibbles

I'll mention first, classic Victoria is Expansive/Financial (that or I listed the wrong leader name ) So no traits for early warfare and no great generals.

But to clarify, when you say:
"Build a city next to every food resource (floodplains count, sheep don't)."

I guess my issue is what to do when you can plant either 2 ok cities or 1 great city. My natural instinct is to plant great ones with great bfcs. Then I often realize I have 1-2 too few :P Maybe err on the side of more cities with good initial crosses for more early production?

I am sure they are not implying place a city next to every food resource. I might leave 3-4 squares between cities.

[tibbles]

Right, but say you can either plant 1 city whos cross will quickly grow to include 2 food resources or place 2, each that get 1 and they overlap a few tiles.

I'd say in a usual start I place maybe 4 cities on normal maps or 6 cities on a huge map before I run into another civ's border. But from that financial vs organized thread, I gathered that I should hypothetically be placing as many as 7 on even a standard map? And my economy never ever crashes except games I am forced to do an early axe/sword rush, and it's sounding like if I were expanding to my full potential it should?

edit: to clarify, so from the above ppl have answered total number of cities, which is handy. I just want to clear up if you're talking settling all of them yourself (assuming space) or settling x, rebuilding economy, then conquering/settling the remainder later.

[Gumbolt]

I have had games where i have placed 7 cities by 1500bc. my economy grinded to a halt for a while.

On a typical game i am always looking to expand. 4-5 cities by around 1500bc is fine. if you plan a early rush then 2 cities and lots of axes to grab a nearby Ai capital.

What you have to keep in mind is the economy. If you expand too fast you are left on 0% science and no money to run the economy.

Certainly i would want techs like writing and pottery before this happened so i could cottage my way out of trouble.

If i build the pyramids i will use representation for science using speciailists. If i can build the oracle then i will try to grab codes of law. I can then use merchants to prop up my economy and increase the science slider. Or science specialists.

If you are not planning on the pyramids you will require cottages or resources like gold/silver to keep your economy running.

With org trait it reduces your costs early on allowing you to expand. Financial allows your cottages to grow quicker.

That being said war economies can run on cities captured. As long as you get your court houses and research currency you will be fine. You economy may run at a loss for 20-30 turns but when you whip court houses this soon turns around. As the cottages grow your science soon flourishes.

Generally you should always aim to expand. Sometimes you just need to pause to allow your economy to recover. One of my biggest downfall on early games was building 5-6 cities and just being content with that.

[Iranon]

I hardly played Vanilla, so this assumes BtS...


You are making your job harder by not expanding much and reducing the AI count... more land for your competitors.

I think a good minimum is the amount required to meet the prerequisites for 3 Cathedrals - 9 on normal. This is because that's a good number for an efficient cultural victory. If you are considering culture (usually faster than space in BtS from my experience, even if you didn't plan it from the start) you might get away with 6 if you have a wonder-full capital that doesn't need the additional multiplier - this still allows the National Wonders. Space and Conquest benefit from more cities, Domination needs them.

With an Imperialistic leader I'd usually shoot for a dozen or so at 1 AD though. Cottages grow on their own, so there's little reason to slow expansion as long as you aren't losing money at 100% gold... exceptions to be made when close to key techs or those that provide free benefits like Currency.

[mike p]

tibbles,

I would do the following for a couple of games and then refine what you've learned to your own play style.

1. Play normally until you've teched Pottery, Writing, and possibly Bronze working.

2. Settle anywhere you can get multiple grasslands, or if Financial, anywhere on the coast. You might want Sailing too in that case, so you can whip a lighthouse.

3. Keep settling. Don't worry too much about overlap, for the most important part of the game most of your cities won't be over size eight or so anyway.

4. If research rate isn't below 20%, you haven't built enough Settlers.

5. Whip a Library in every city that has food resources to support scientists.

6. Cottage, and work, all of the grasslands.

7. Don't despair when the tech bar at the top reads "Research: Code of Laws (71)".

If I'm in a race to settle lands before the AI, I sometimes won't stop until I get down to a deficit at 0% science. At least up to Emperor level, you can rally back, as you'll have more land than anyone else.

[Dan Quale]

I only build 2-3 assuming I find copper anywhere at all, if its somewhat close ill just build 2 to start and like 12 axemen. Even at diety 12 axes before 2000-1800 bc is enough to annihilate someone fast. If no early rush resource is available, ill rex until im just short of strike at the time i finish research pottery/writing, run scientists till alphabet, then "build" my way into a tech lead, through col and currency.

[Skallagrimson]

I certainly don't go by "number of cities", but rather, where the slider is. My expansion (which is sometimes true REX and sometimes not) tends to be in bursts: essential military resources and "sweet" locations of high food, etc., go first. Then I try to work that up to where the tiles are improved and some key buildings are in place, then another burst for the highly-nice-to-haves like ivory, gold, etc., non-calendar luxury spots. Then work that up some (and possibly take a break to try to build Oracle, etc.). And then when the slider is back up to 30% at a good surplus I look around for spots that aren't a huge distance away, have a respectable amount of food, and the AI hasn't spammed into yet. 30% is generally to give some buffer for unit costs and city growth, which will increase maintenance.

Modifiers are on the order of chokepoints, what my traits are, who the nearby AIs are (e.g., go slower and with more military beef ups if Shaka is around the bend), what the land type is, where I started out, and so on.

Also I've found sometimes REXing can continue on for larger expanses if you include a palace build to re-center the cap--a frequent necessity the way the map tends to shove you onto the end of a frigging peninsula 9 times out of 10.

[mirthadir]

You should aim for infinity +1 cities.

Frankly I rarely kick myself for expanding into a city slot, more often I kick myself for thinking that that wonder (i.e. the Mids) or that time-tech advantage (i.e. aesthetics/lit) was worth more than the location that ends up holding both U and oil.

I'm seconding Dave here, food is king and my settler order tends to go like this:

1. Blocking settlers. How close to the AI can I reasonably go without triggering an early war and still getting good land. I have been known to drop my first settler on barren tundra just because it was a chokepoint.
2. Food resources. The whip solves so many problems early. A good food tile is both a tile (from running specs) and a tile (from the whip).
3. Mass flood plains.
4. Cu/Fe (maybe marble/stone).
5. Happiness resources.
6. Calendar resources.
7. Green space.
8. Coastal.
9. Anything that is finally left worth working.

Number 8 gets bumped way up for GLH builds, 4, 5, and 6 are regularly fiddled around, but I'm normally a huge fan of blocking, food, and FP (which really is just inferior food). Late game surprisingly crappy terrain is worth settling. With good corps, anything can net a profit in FM. With SP you can settle tundra rivers/hills.