Isolated start: Show me where I went wrong?

[Firewind]

Alright, I've been playing the current game (a genuine attempt to move onto Noble fully and not just screw around with it and give up when I get bored) for a few days, and as far as I can tell I think I've messed up irreparably.

Noble difficulty, Tectonics, Standard map with 7 civs, as Boudica of the Celts. City flipping after conquest and Permanent Alliances are active, no other non-default options are set.

I ended up in a small island start with Pacal for a neighbour. I warrior-rushed him, and set about trying to peacefully expand. I was hoping for a situation similar to one I'd run into recently - a chain of islands all accessible by Galley.

Unfortunately, I got one largish island, a smaller one south of it (with Horses, a couple of seafood, and not much else), an even smaller one north-east of it (with Iron and nothing else) and that was it until Astronomy.

Even worse, all the other AIs got lumped together on another large landmass - about nine turns away by (Nav I promo'd) Galleon. And they'd set up a Hindu bloc.

I've been managing to keep some form of parity by trying to aim for techs the AI aren't likely to get first and trading like crazy, but they're still pulling far ahead of me. I got lucky in getting Tokugawa to Pleased, even if it cost me my diplo with Pericles, and I'm hoping to make him a voluntary vassal.

Being Boudica, I figured war was a good way to try to grab a foothold, but the other continent seems so far away I'm not sure I should risk attacking them directly. Pericles and Ramesses have both settled on some of the islands near me, and I was considering attacking them (particularly Ramesses, who doesn't appear to have Gunpowder yet, while Pericles has Riflemen), but again, I don't want to start waging wars without a clear goal in mind, and I'm not sure how much good I can really do here.

I have a proto-SOD ready to go, and a small fleet of Galleons ready to carry it to whomever I target. However, by this point (1700s) I don't think it'll make a difference anymore.

Thoughts? Advice?

[TheMeInTeam]

oooh. I've been extra bored lately. I'll shadow from 4000 BC. I'll try to be somewhat detailed but I'm kind of tired.

[r_rolo1]

Your mistake ( in retrospective .... but I would not even try that in any regular game ) was to have a nehgibour founding budhism. Not that the religion is bad in itself, but by founding it, yit almost forced the rest of the world to be Hindu. you should had killed him in sight ( j/k )

Advices..... well, a determined beeline to space can work, but you definitely need to break the hindu unity. As things are , you're one missionary away of losing the game by AP diplo .

[Firewind]

Yeah, I was hoping to wipe Pacal out before he could do -anything-, but about two turns before I DOW'd he founded Buddhism... -_- I didn't even need the third warrior I wasted time building, really.

I didn't think space race would work, given the poor land available. Don't you need some serious production to get to space?

As for the missionaries, I'm running Theocracy, without any religion set up, so that should stop them from spreading to me, right? Or does it glitch if you're in Theo with no religion?

(The main reason I have no religion is the other AIs - I kinda need trading partners to have any hope in hell of pulling this off, I suspect, so making them hate me would do even more damage... wouldn't it?)

[r_rolo1]

Religionless theo does not stop autospread of other religions. And you have a city without religion......

[TheMeInTeam]

1595 Conquest win (I attacked before I was ready because I got cocky, or I might have won sooner).

Spoiler:

In place is the most appealing



Whoa



Close. It's noble so he has to die fast.





I could have probably locked him in to his capitol while expanding with gallies, but that's dicier than getting rid of mr. religion (which we can use) now.

Stonehenge will help as many sites will be hammer-poor but need a border pop for seafood:



Shrine won't hurt either.

I put up city #3



I also grab the great lighthouse and oracle CoL



Basically with limited cities and a very powerful hammer capitol spamming wonders makes sense. Obviously mutal was used as a GP farm but I used building slots (2x temple, library, market). Had some galley troubles and had to whip mutal pretty hard to protect seafood. It worked out pretty ok before the ADs rolled around:



Civil service (with academy in capitol) then we head toward astro.

We find some land in 340 AD, unsettled.

Rest of the AIs by 460 AD:





Circumnavigation



I get antsy and decide to attack with knights:



Japan doesn't have longbows (the rest got them while i was sailing over through mass trade whore love festing). Japan dies fast.



I go after greece next



Unlike cuirassers knights don't defend cities well vs pikes which they got just as I was hitting so damn. I am forced to gift a city to Joao so pericles doesn't get it. I still kill him.

Next is Egypt, though I'm sure to keep joao and charlie at pleased to make it harder to bribe vs me





Then charlie



Then Joao



Joao kills pericles. This triggers the vassal average rule and makes him capitulate. That's right. By taking one of my vassal's cities, it enables that same AI to capitulate. And people wonder why I complain about the mechanics.

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[michmbk]

Some thoughts from your save - I played about 30 or so turns from where you left off:

Spoiler:

This is very winnable. I checked everything out and played about 20-30 turns. Here’s a few things I saw - just trying to offer tips based on what I saw, but I am by no means an expert - I'm currently only a monarch level player:

1. Finish steel, and even though I almost never like trading steel, you’ll need to as you need to deal with severe happiness issues. You can use it to get to constitution first, and the next turn, to democracy, and pick up other military techs like military tradition along with some gold. I posted screenshots in a separate spoiler in case you want to try it yourself. Then I would suggest a revolt into emancipation, hereditary rule and mercantilism. That’ll deal with the happiness issue – normally I’d like to do all that right after a golden age so no anarchy, but time is of the essence here. As far as your stack – I used the gold to upgrade trebs to cannons and maces to grens. No one has a ton of cities, so your stack once fully upgraded, should be sufficient to do some damage. The trick will be diplomacy – with everyone hindu, you’ll need to be prepared for a potential war with everyone.

2. Varmilion needs a workboat fast. It has unimproved seafood – I immediately switched production to workboat then lighthouse. In new island cities with seafood, I like to have a workboat sent along with the settler from my capital if possible, and then start building granary/lighthouse for growth. That city was size 4 without improving the seafood – now it will grow faster - I have it to 6 already with the work boat.

3. At this point, I think you need to beeline a tech that the AI doesn’t have and try to backfill – I think you’re shooting for winning late with a push to industrialism and tanks. I’d recommend biology, since I find it helpful with growth, and the AI doesn’t often prioritize. Use it to backfill techs, while mass producing units out of your production cities, because you’ll need to be prepared for a hindu dogpile. Check diplomacy to see if anyone is disliked more than the rest. I’d suggest attacking Charlie or Toku with the stack you created once upgraded to cannons and grens – they seem to have the least amount of land, and therefore likely the least units. They can also give you a foothold into the other territory. Toku might be best because he tends to not inspire friendship and is backwards techwise. I wouldn’t be opposed to your suggestion of Ramesses – if he’s not at gunpowder, cannons and grens will make mincemeat out of him – he often doesn’t defend well in my games. I'll put my approach in a separate spoiler so as not to ruin for you what happened. Grens will be key for you, because they attack rifles well, and that’s what you’ll be up against for many of these AI. Siege and grens can take the AI though, and your charismatic trait will help too because you’ll get heavily promoted units fast.

4. Your workers don't seem to be doing anything, yet you have unimproved tiles and one city that's starving for food - it also has an unimproved plantation site, which should have been providing food and commerce since calendar.

5. One approach - not necessarily the best, but I personally built national epic in mutal and am currently running 7 specialists - I'll show what happened there in a separate spoiler. I can bulb or run deficit research with great people hopefully, which is needed right now.

6. I'm assuming you could have settled that little strip of island to the south west with galleys, if so, then that needed to have three cities on it much earlier. Pericles has just settled a second site there in my game, so he has my city over there boxed in. In fact, you have a settler on your galleon - I would get him on the island to the southwest and settle a city on the far east tip of it. On noble, you could handle having cities all over that island.

7. I opted to take the barb city - again, land is power. If Toku is an easy war, then Charlie could be next because he's settled that island.

As far as general recommendations for your game, on noble, you can rex more without worrying about maintenance. Early game – prioritize growth. With islands, I prioritize lighthouses, granary, and other food techs, and if they’re small islands, I try to figure out the max number of cities I can fit too, because you need cities for success. The minute you got astronomy, I would have tried to take units over to the island with the barb city and fill that one out – land is power. Also, use the power of the whip. Caste is nice for research, but when you have happiness issues, lots of food and low production, whipping is key. You can whip key buildings like libraries, courthouses, markets, grocers, etc…to keep your research high. If you don’t have a lot of happiness resources, hereditary rule and emancipation will be key civics for you.

Here's what I did in your game in terms of catching up in tech, war and the great person.

Spoiler:

First off, getting close to tech parity. Teched steel, and traded:







All this allowed me to get to hereditary rule and emancipation, which solved the severe happiness problems. On a small island setup like this, I find hereditary rule fantastic and often run it the whole game for happiness. Next up, making Mutal a GP farm, by building National Epic and running specialists:



Then, who to DOW?

I decided first to take the barb city, which was easy, and on noble, can handle the maintenance. It'll help me later when I beat up Charlie. I popped a GS in the interim, bulbed half of physics, then did this:



I'm now only 3 techs or so behind everyone. Then, I decided to DOW Toku, figuring a full dogpile was less likely with him. It worked out, because when I did, only Ramesses DOW'ed on me. In my game, Ramesses had rifling at this point - so he's not backwards in tech. The big mistake I made was not building a couple frigates or ships of the line to escort, because I lost two galleons trying to get them safe. Anyway, I quickly realized these AI have so few cities and on noble level, that means few units. Ramesses was a nuisance, but little more.





The two Japanese cities quickly flipped to Portugal and Greece, which I somewhat expected. I then turned the newly built stack and the old stack to the island Ramesses settled near me. I quit after taking his third city on that island.



Plenty of units to take the fourth still, but I think the point is made - this is salvageable. Ramesses would also pay a lot for peace now, so I bet he'd pay more once his last island city is gone. Popped a great merchant in Mutal, and sent him on a trade mission - that's why you see 3000 gold (I sent one galleon and 3 ships of the line to protect, since I'm at war). So at this point, I'd have a whole new island (make sure fully cottaged), lots of money to run 100% research, and a beeline to industrialism. Build nothing but military in Bibracte from now on, and once hit industrialism, backtrack to combustion to upgrade to destroyers and transports, and invade the other continent. I feel pretty confident this is still winnable, especially with all the new land. While warring, i got two great generals, which created two military academies on the mainland, for faster production. If you get happiness under control, you could consider police state too.

Big concern will be destroyers at this point - Charlie just got them, and I'm nowhere near combustion yet - I bet all AIs are teching down that line, which is a great approach on water maps, but I think you'll need to tech opposite to pull ahead, and try to figure out who you can successfully trade with and who you can beat up on. From my shadow, what you should learn is to build a few ships of the line to accompany your galleons before invading Toku or Ramesses - I honked that up. You could also DOW Toku with your stack right outside Ramesses's island, since it appears he'll DOW you if you DOW Toku - that would save you the nuisance I had of taking Kyoto and Tokyo only to watch them flip.

[comatosedragon]

Originally Posted by Firewind

(a genuine attempt to move onto Noble fully and not just screw around with it and give up when I get bored)

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by comatosedragon

This map is quite unique, even for watery tectonics. Once I truly understood its layout it was an eyebrow raiser for sure!

[Firewind]

I followed your tips, michmbk, but couldn't get Democracy for a trade. I'm beelining Biology now, and training up a stack of doom to gun for Ramesses (while pretending to DoW Toku).

The island to the southwest, I couldn't settle without galleons (technically, I could do it with caravels, but there was a barb city there already (which I razed to grab the seafood), and I didn't fancy my new city's chances on its own.

I'm going to need to run on empty research soon to get enough gold for upgrades. I'm hoping Mutal can cover for me to some degree there, but I'm not counting on it...

Thanks for giving me some hope this game can be salvaged without a titanic struggle. I honestly didn't think it'd be doable, or at least not before another AI won anyway. I've even put my new game after this on the backburner just to see if I can win it now I have an idea of what to do.

@comatosedragon: Huh? :blink:

@TMIT: Conquest by the 1500s... I knew there was a reason I worshipped you. :P May I ask what's so unusual about this island setup? I get them... Well, not often, but often enough it doesn't stun me, though it often draws several curses.

[vanatteveldt]

Looking at the land you should have been able to settle the islands around you and have 4x the land of the opponents, and win any way you choose?

[Firewind]

Ok, just as I moved to declare war, Ramesses and Joao make a permanent alliance, and Toku vassals himself to them voluntarily.

I guess I must've waited too long... Is it still worth waging war by this point? I think I could take some of Ramesses' island cities, if I really pushed, but I'm less sure of being able to sue for peace given the size of the force against me...

[michmbk]

This is a tough game at this point - I shadowed it longer, and I had the same issue re: Joao and Charlie with their permanent alliance. In fact, they're two votes from a diplo victory, when I tried my aggressive strategy. Everyone is friendly with everyone else. I'll try to post an update later.

Short story - I did a quick war with Pericles to get the rest of the southwest island, and then decided that Lisbon needed to become mine. Teched to artiellery and assembly line first, then to fission to get the ability to build powerful naval units. Built nothing but units in Bibracte, and ran merchants in Mutal to pop two great merchants. Allowed for deficit research. Then, right after fission, decided teching was done for now. 0% tech, and war with Joao, Charlie, and Ramesses all at once. Details and a few shots later.

[michmbk]

Firewind - here's what I did:

Spoiler:

I basically teched all military techs - beelined industrialism, then artillery, then backfilled combustion. Since you didn't have oil on land, my last tech was fission, and then it was time. I actually decided to play peaceful with everyone but Pericles while I did this, because I needed to get the key military techs first. First off, taking that SW island strip from Pericles:



Meanwhile, Joao and Charlie with their permanent alliance were 2 votes from diplo victory. I looked at the top 5 cities screen, and Lisbon was ridiculous - wonders everywhere, including Cristo, which is a great target in the late game, and eiffel, which will help with the culture pressure I'm going to get.



So I decided that I would DOW Joao (and Charlie with their alliance) and prepare for dogpiling. Again, no AI has enough production to match all your cities if producing military. I've produced nothing but military units in Bibracte since the moment I shadowed. Also, every AI appears to be pleased or friendly with every other one, which sucks - means a sure dogpile.

All my galleons are positioned right outside of Lisbon - they'll get beat up by destroyers and battleships, but not before the troops land: And with all the units being produced out of Mutal and Bibracte, I can handle the land war dogpile. I'm weak on the sea, but not on land. So all my seafood gets pillaged, but on land, it goes much better. Note this is 1 turn after I sent my latest great merchant into Lisbon for a trade mission. National Epic really helped since Mutal has been running tons of specialists. Everyone lands:



Lisbon:



Quick switch to slavery to whip in every city, helps get more units. I can switch back one turn later thanks to Cristo.

Joao's other cities on that continent:





So he's eliminated. The AI is braindead at war - they sent all their units over to the island I took from Ramesses to try to take those weak cities, instead of protecting Lisbon. I'm happy to wage defensive war with them on that island, and even lose some cities, if I can get some traction into the main island and take those nice shiny wonders. I get peace from Charlie (he has more gold than his alliance partner Joao), and now have my foothold. I then DOW'ed on Pericles, took one of the old Japanese cities, and have forces ready to move in further. That's where I quit. Save is attached if you want to compare. To win from here, it's mainly produce units, gain control of the seas, and slowly move in and destroy the rest of the AI mainland. Won't be hard with all the production power of Bibracte, and the number of cities. Just produce tanks, battleships and transports, and mow down everyone. Granted, culture is a problem on the mainland, so you can't waste time, but still should be easy from here. No one has enough cities to build the ship, and with all these cities, I'm too powerful for the AI to take down. I have a bunch of work boats sleeping, waiting to rebuild seafood once peace is complete. War booty - check out Portugal's wonders!





Save attached

[vanatteveldt]

Heh, I couldn't resist the 'obsolete' look of that capital, so I shadowed and took a peaceful (except for the first 10 turns :-)) cultural victory.

Script was fairly simple: warrior rush Pacal, build every wonder I could find in the capital while building up Pacal's capital as GPP.


I think the capital built Stonehenge, Oracle (MC), pyramids, colossus, +50% GPP thing, swedagon paya, ...

Pacal's cap built maoi statues, great library (maybe stupid in culture?)

I settled six cities: 3 on mainland, two on southern island, on on northeast island. I decided to make the crab-horse-fish city on the southern island the third culture city because it had decent food and some production and could borrow from the capital (which would probably be first to legendary due to all the wonders).

I teched until liberalism, I grabbed four religions (Buddhism (pacal), Judaism, Confucianism and Taoism (I could have had more but that seemed enough). I settled most GPP in the third city, and built 8 cathedrals (4 religions * 6 cities / 3 temples per cathedral), I think 4 in city #3, 1 in capital, 3 in pacal.

The AI sailed by when I was around 50-60 turns from victory. I switched to free religion from pacifism in my third golden age and managed to get them all to pleased by gifting and dogpiling toku.

After building temples the 3 aux cities and the capital just built musketmen, so my power was in the same range as the AI's, which probably helped avoid DOWs.

Playing time just over three hours, 22k points.


[edit: note that the capital and third in the screenshots both use the copper and clams, I wanted to show the 'full potential' of these cities]

[cabert]

I tried this one, a bit, and lingered around for a while (no goal, no war except getting rid of pacal).
I had a wonder festival, and was happily destroying caravels (and carracks) in 1718 with privateers (my second great general is very close).
I'm #1 in score by quite a margin, and could quite easily destroy any AI.
They don't have a tech I don't have, and I have quite a few they miss (astro being the biggest of course, but I also have biology, and physics while most of them don't have scimet).
I guess you just didn't go for the economic techs early enough (you don't even have education in 1700AD )

[TheMeInTeam]

If the AI doesn't trade for a tech, don't forget that you can partially research something they have to drop how much they value it.

As for why I think the map is unusual, well...

It's a very watery tectonics (nintentotogepi used to play alot of these), but the strange thing is that despite that, we have FIVE clumped AIs on a very, very small landmass, and we're on another one. The odd thing here is that you could get nearly half of the world's land (maybe more) without invading the AI at all (other than your neighbor).

[vanatteveldt]

I'm almost tempted to replay this one and play a peacemonger game, flip pacal, beeline astro (maybe via lib), and colonize the 'extra' islands...

[Sammcs]

Is there a way to make this into a scenario or something so that we can change the difficulty? This map seems like it could be quite interesting to play on higher difficulties, although I have read the spoilers I guess...

[vanatteveldt]

I think you can save the worldbuilder file and manually edit that (using notepad) to change difficulty