How to define what is RPG and what belongs in the citizens forum

[eyrei]

As I reviewed my decision to move the Jedi Council thread to the RPG forum, my reasoning being that it had no CIV3 related agenda, I realized that several of the other 'citizens groups' fit or nearly fit this description as well. What are everyone elses thoughts on this? I want to keep the RPG from interfering with the basic demo game because some people do not wish to participate, and this will be done unless everyone agrees they should be mixed. However, I need some input as to where to draw the line. I am also starting an informational poll on whether or not you participate in the RPG. Anyway, discuss. I would like to have this resolved before the 1st.

[Danke]

Good, and tough, question. Many of the citizens groups fall into a mix of RP and game issues. Ideally, many of the RPG topics or interactions will spill over into game play.

I had responded to the jedi move, as i was mentally defining the 'new' RPG area as encompassing anything that did not exist in the first demo game, a very sloppy decision point. But a cutoff relvolving around the fact that our whole 'government' is RP.

I would suggest that *either* all topics that are RP-ish and are not related to game direction be moved (which would include religions and the Fanatikan Order, for example, but not the German ethnic group or the Fanatikan Hawks) -OR-

Only move topics related to the RPG economy. This would provide a pretty cut-and-dried litmus test of whether something goes in the RPG sub-forum, or not.

[Zarn]

I agree with Danke. If the Jedi Council and other threads of the sort are moved, I would still be content.

[eyrei]

I think the results of the poll on RPG participation should impact where we draw this line. The more people playing the more it can spill over into the rest of the game. This is not to say that if 90% of people participate in the RPG that it will be allowed to almost control the rest of the game. If 90% are participating, then threads such as the Jedi Council should be allowed in the citizens forum, though.

[chiefpaco]

So far, so good. Very tough call. I suggest if the call is too hard to make, leave the thread where it is. I hope no one complains that a thread belongs in a particular forum. I mean, they are all here. They are just sorted for best reference.

As a non-RPG player, my dream would be a sub-forum where only the game itself exists. After all, the RPG element can not exist without the game (or can it?). I can not suggest how to best tell threads are RPG. So far, I think our test is that threads are about something Civ3-ish or demogame-ish are allowed. However, this may exclude some of the groups here now - ethnic groups being one of them. I don't think the exceptions always fit under the RPG title, but maybe I think the RPG title should be changed to house the complimentary material. I guess my views are quite different than Danke's, who also has good ideas.

Waiting until we see how well it works while playing the game may be a good idea. If the gaming threads are getting constantly buried, I'd suggest we are having a problem.

[Cyc]

I almost fully understand where you stand on the issue cp. Danke has a good "concrete" standard of separation, but I think its rigidness might allow too many things to slip by it. Maybe use that as the base standard. I don't think we should guesstimate separation issues by poll percentages unless those polls are very specific.

Personally, I think the Jedi thread goes in the RPG sub-forum. Is there anywhere in the Civ3 game where a Jedi is mentioned? There was not a problem with citizen's groups in the first game. That's because citizen's groups were based on game play. War, peace, trade, maps, whatever. That should be our dividing line. Does the thread relate directly to game play by the citizens. I can see the ethnic groups being grandfathered into the citizen's sub-forum, as they were there the first game and deals directly with the citizens playing the game. But Jedi's are an idea from another money-making venture, not Civ3. Therfore it, along with other threads that are not specifically game related, should go into the RPG sub-forum.
Just my 2gp

[disorganizer]

Even in the first game had groups not relatd to gameplay... just a note ;-)


1) as an example, the fanatikan order HAS something to do with gameplay. it tries to lobby agressive expansion if you read it. just because it ALSO contains rpg elements does NOT mean it does not contain game related data
2) our "rules" what to use the forums for states that CITIZEN GROUPS belong to the citizen forum. finish. so thats where the jedi'S belong
3) ethnic groups solve NO game related issue. it is a rel-life related thread and should also go to some other forum when the others must be moved. equal measures to all threads.


when the game starts we will have even more non game-related groups, so why care? let all citizen groups go to the citizen forum like in the old game. it wont disturb the forum too much. and thats where they belong.

IF we really move all non game related issues out of the citizen forum we should then rename it. we should rename the rpg-forum to citizen forum and the citizen forum to "only game related" forum. But that was not the purpose of the redesign.

And a clarification: The RPG forum was created because of the money-issues and the high thread-impact which was introduced to the roleplay part. Not to keep the citizen forum clean of all non-gamerelated stuff.

I again want to say, if we move some, we should move ALL non directly game related discussion. Not only some threads some people dont want.

[Chieftess]

I think there are some straightfoward 'lines', but of course, there's the fuzzy areas. Ok, the clear parts...

RPG topics:

- Anything having to do with the gpt/banking system (jobs, getting gpt for stuff).

Fuzzy Areas:

- Roleplaying the game lifestyle. On the one hand, you're roleplaying events in the game. (going to another city, holding an event in the city). On the other hand (and this is what I thought the Citizens Forum would be for when I first came in Term 1 of Demogame I) city events would have some bearing. (even governors getting citizens to move into their province).

- Groups/Guilds - This seems to be the heart of the problem. One of the aspects of the Demogame RPG, I believe, was to allow players to get a certain amount of gpt for running a group, or paying a fee to join. You would almost need two of the same group in each thread. (one for RPG players, one without)

The demogame RPG was meant to add some spice to the game (since, the citizen's forum could get a little dull with just citizen's groups and discussions). This is definately a tough call. If you wanted some RPG elements, like adding National Parks, they they can't be added on to the constitution if we don't allow the RPG to spill over into the game.

Try to think of it this way...


Citizen's SubForum = a "Citizen's Hall", where discussions are held, and groups meet. The RPG aspect -can- enter the citizens groups (as an option). Groups could be split into 2 catagories:

-- RPG-Enabled Citizen Group - the owner and Citizens can use the gpt/fees if they wish.

-- Game-Only Citizen Group - No RPG aspect can enter.

A note of this should be made in the Citizen Group index.

RPG Subforum = "Daily Life". Just like real life, it can spill over into politics. That's why some citizens groups can be affected. This can be where the game 'economy' lies. Economy goes bad in the game (which affects the RPG) and the citizens can take it to the groups, or discussions. (to add some flavor).

That is, suppose a civ was exorting us, and taking 30 gold every other turn. A low gold count means a low economy, and would effect 'everyday life'. So, a 'citizen's voice' will call for some action.

[disorganizer]

I think ct is right. Just let it run (thats how i interpret it at least).
Anyway, all citizens who do not want to take part in a rpg-enabled group are free to decide this as they like.
Will we also ban provinces which are rpg-enable from the government forum?

We will not be able to draw a clear line.

[eyrei]

While your distinctions make sense Chieftess, it doesn't really solve the problem of RPG threads pushing the game related threads down where noone sees them.

Anyway, I don't expect to solve this problem right now, but I want to have some ideas on the table if it does become a problem after the game starts.

To put this in another perspective, threads such as the Jedi thread are grossly off-topic for a forum about playing a community game of civ3.

Keep in mind that this forum is devoted 1st to the demo game, and that the RPG is a side venture. If we begin to get complaints about the number of questionable threads outside of the RPG forum, we will have to enforce the forum on-topic rule and move many of them to the RPG forum.

[Bill_in_PDX]

So forgive my ignorance, but does someone earn more salary for founding a citizens group?

If so, I'd suggest you eliminate that aspect of your RPG and the problem will take care of itself.

[eyrei]

So very true, Bill. I hadn't thought of it that way. A limit on the number of groups a person heads should be put into place.

[Zarn]

I starting to get confused. Also, why would a citizen group founder get more money? That does not seem fair.

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Zarn
I starting to get confused. Also, why would a citizen group founder get more money? That does not seem fair.

Not necessarily the founder, but the spokesperson for the group would get a salary, I believe.

[disorganizer]

1) No. They dont get any extra money. If a group charges money from participants, the money goes to the groups account to be spent on something for the group. Of course, the group also could hire people, like lobbyists for the chat etc.

2) It did not disturb the last game. And we had much more other threads in the last game. The citizen groups do not tend to be persistent on the top-posted threads. And also, if a discussion is important, it can be registered in the discussion registry and wont be lost. At the moment, of course the citizen groups take a lot of posting, as people join. But we also dont have so many groups...

3) When the RPG will eventually start charging groups for having their offices and limits them to getting members only from provinces where they have offices (a proposal for the next update), this will limit itself, as this will force groups to charge their members and this will naturally limit participation and as this also postcount.

4) Why interfere with the citizen posting all the time? We managed without over-modding the last time *hint*.
We even had rpg and other thread in the citizen forum. I wonder how many people really care about the questionable threads being here.

[eyrei]

4) Why interfere with the citizen posting all the time? We managed without over-modding the last time *hint*.
We even had rpg and other thread in the citizen forum. I wonder how many people really care about the questionable threads being here.

dis, we did not have anything on the level of this RPG going on. We also did not have threads about Jedi knights...

Remember not everyone is playing the RPG, and some of those may not want them here. This game can get confusing enough. Personally, I don't care if they are here or in the RPG forum, but I am not going to have to sift through them looking for valid info like many government officials will have to. If it doesn't become a problem, nothing will be done. I will even move the Jedi thread back here if it is shown that it has something, anything to do with the demo game (outside the RPG). I really think that thread will have more life in the RPG forum anyway...

[disorganizer]

Well, we had tremble infidelis. We had a lot of bogus threads. We had many useless discussions (from vacation resorts to parties). Did any1 complain?

I dont care finally, but i think its wrong to split so much.
But i also think: You shouldnt intervene until someone complains and posts in the needed-thread that the suspected thread shall be moved.

Or did someone complain?

But even then, you will have to be carefull:

As seen before, the Fanatikan Order is a purely gamerelated institution. But was misinterpreted obviously just because we wanted to run a business (or was it because we are a democratic group electing a leader? i still dont know).

The line is very grey between citizen (where citizens can post about EVERYthing according to our constitution) and rpg forum. Thats what i wanted to point out in that example. As the last resort, it should be upon the thread-founder to decide where the thread resides until someone complains or for example game-related info is posted in rpg-forum (this is the only reason i see to move a thread)

[Zarn]

If The Jedi Council remains in RPG. I won't have a link, right?

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Zarn
If The Jedi Council remains in RPG. I won't have a link, right?

Link?

[eyrei]

Originally posted by disorganizer
Well, we had tremble infidelis. We had a lot of bogus threads. We had many useless discussions (from vacation resorts to parties). Did any1 complain?

I dont care finally, but i think its wrong to split so much.
But i also think: You shouldnt intervene until someone complains and posts in the needed-thread that the suspected thread shall be moved.

Or did someone complain?

But even then, you will have to be carefull:

As seen before, the Fanatikan Order is a purely gamerelated institution. But was misinterpreted obviously just because we wanted to run a business (or was it because we are a democratic group electing a leader? i still dont know).

The line is very grey between citizen (where citizens can post about EVERYthing according to our constitution) and rpg forum. Thats what i wanted to point out in that example. As the last resort, it should be upon the thread-founder to decide where the thread resides until someone complains or for example game-related info is posted in rpg-forum (this is the only reason i see to move a thread)

The reason we never had any complaints was because they never recieved massive amounts of attention. What I am worried about is a gigantic number of RPG threads and posts in the citizens forum, which is quite possible given the interest in this game. I do not want those who don't wish to play the RPG to have to wade through a bunch of stuff to find anything they actually want to read.

Again, the RPG is a side venture, and Thunderfall was nice enough to give us an extra forum for this game, but the Demo game is the reason we have this whole forum. Until such a time as all members of this demo game want to participate in the RPG, I feel some effort must be made to keep them separate. If you guys get it running smoothly, maybe we can begin to integrate, but right now it is one the most chaotic messes I have seen in a while (no offense to anyone involved, I know it is not an easy endeavor). The demo game itself takes priority, and I do not want to see this chaos spread into the rest of the game.

And I do mean some effort. I am not going to close threads or move anything that is not directly related to the game, but threads with no references to the actual demogame may be moved. If you feel they should be moved back, all you have to do is supply a reason.