RFC:Antiquity

[kravixon]

I've always thought this would be an interesting project, and I'd like to see how many other people would like to see this materialize. I understand, from looking at RFC:Europe that it has been a tremendous amount of work. I imagine RFC:A would be a much smaller scale than RFC:E, and thus require less work. However, there would still need to be an interest and a couple of people who would be interested in and capable of modding.

I've always thought RFC would work well in a classical setting. I've always enjoyed playing as Greece, Rome, Carthage, and Egypt, and I thought it would be sweet to have a scenario based on the ancient world. Thus, here are my proposed features/things that would need to be done:

1. A timeline of 3000BC-476AD
2. A new tech tree
3. A map featuring the Med, North Africa, and the Middle East, stretching to present day Iran.
4. Ability to play as Civs such as Athens, Sparta, Macedon, Rome, Carthage, Phoenicia, Persia, Egypt, Babylon, the Hittites, Assyria, and the Celts. Possibly as Israel or the Levant, but that might be better off as a non-playable civ.
5. New Unique units for some of the Civs.
6. Stability, Plagues, and all the normal features of RFC
7. New graphics and UHVs

Concerning the workload:

• There are less civs than RFCE(which I'm using as a guide line since it is the only other community scenario). I have proposed 12 playable civs, which means less UHVs, less things to balance, and less things to code.
• There is no need to add complex things like the Crusades and the Papacy, as such things simply did not exist at the time of the mod.
• Several of the proposed civs already have a unique unit: Rome, Carthage, Persia, Egypt, Bablyon, and the Celts. Giving Sparta the Phalanx (or the same unit with a better name), that leaves 5 civs to add unique units for.
• The map would be about the same size of RFC:E. I know enough about Civ 4 to make most of the map myself, as long as I have feedback on my work.

This thread is merely to gauge the reception of my idea. Discussion of mechanics, units, and civs will have separate threads if the project is indeed launched. Would there be enough interest to warrant the creation of such a project? Who would like to play such a scenario, and who would be able to help build it?

[BurnEmDown]

I'd play it, if there were cool features other than UHVs and UPs, tho I can't think of any other than stuff having to do with religions.
(On the topic of religions please make Israel\Judea playable so Judaism will finally have importance in a historically accurate setting )
Also maybe add Huns?

[3Miro]

I actually like the idea. I personally love the Ancient world even better than the medieval one. A bad news is that I for one do not have the physical capabilities to code two mods at the same time.

So far RFC Europe has been somewhat successful largely due to the contributions of 5 - 6 people. st Lucifer (the map is mostly his), sedna17 (for XML and some Python, which means the Tech Tree, Units, Buildings, Wonders, Graphics and so on), Jessiecat (for the tremendous historical knowledge helping create something that actually makes sense)
micbic (for synchronizing all the somewhat random city name maps) and 3Miro (me) (for all of the DLL changed and some python). I do not mean to belittle or unappreciate all the people that contributed city name maps and graphics and feedback.

A good news is that my goal trough out the entire process has been to make the .dll file as flexible as possible. Some time ago we (mostly senda and I) agreed to make it C++ driven but python controlled. Some of the maps and balancing mechanics of the game were initially hard-coded. While this works very efficiently for creating RFC, it makes modmoding hard. If you use the RFCEurope .dll file you will be able to do almost everything (hopefully everything) just in XML and python. This will cut the labor significantly.

In some sense working with C++ requires more "skills" then Python and XML. C++ is less intuitive and one needs some background in it. XML and Python are easier to read, actually all that you need is good text editor (I recommend TextPad for Windows, look it up on Google).

A bad news is that while RFC:A may be able to go without me, you still need people like sedna and jesiecat and st. Lucifer and micbic and others.

The best advice that I can give is: since you proposed it, start with what you can do, do the map and see if you will find people to help you with the rest. (for all that my advice is worth)

[Jet]

Never mind.

[kravixon]

3Miro- Would both project be able to share resources then? That would be a godsend Are there any other active modders? Viashing comes to mind; i know he was working on RFC Epic

Jet- I'm not sure what TAM means, but if it means The Ancient Map, then of course. I'd like to have a map made, then add civs, then get them to spawn in at the right times before adding everything else in. It's always easier to keep it to lots of simple steps.

BurnEmDown- The Huns would be open for discussion, but it's difficult since as far as I can tell no one is really sure where they're from exactly and what their capital would be. As far as other features, I want to keep it simple for now, perhaps more can be done with random events and a lot more "quests".

[3Miro]

Originally Posted by kravixon

3Miro- Would both project be able to share resources then? That would be a godsend Are there any other active modders? Viashing comes to mind; i know he was working on RFC Epic

Jet- I'm not sure what TAM means, but if it means The Ancient Map, then of course. I'd like to have a map made, then add civs, then get them to spawn in at the right times before adding everything else in. It's always easier to keep it to lots of simple steps.

BurnEmDown- The Huns would be open for discussion, but it's difficult since as far as I can tell no one is really sure where they're from exactly and what their capital would be. As far as other features, I want to keep it simple for now, perhaps more can be done with random events and a lot more "quests".

If you are to make the map, make it the right size but don't bother to add civs initially. The initial civs all had to be removed before I could get RFCE work (the very first test version). Give maybe a couple.

[Jet]

No, I (in the post I deleted, but too late ) meant The Ancient Mediterranean mod.

[Fierabras]

I have been working on a mod/scenario with similar ideas. Basically it will be a revamped Greek World with RFC stuff and 1 new feature: non-random events.

This is what I have so far:

- Tiny map, cut out of RFC (link for details and download)
- Some historic events with choices (link for screenshots)
- Dynamic City Names (same as in RFC, Celts still need to be added)
- Timeline 600 BC - 300 AD (Classical Antiquity)

I'll keep working on this, but if anyone else would get RFC:Antiquity going, I would be interested.

[War Bear]

I think the map is a bit too small for having Athens, Sparta, and Macedon, considering Athens and Sparta are two tiles away from each other and Macedon is still really close.
Assyria, Babylon, and the Hittites would be really cramped, too.

[Arkaeyn]

I'd say that the map doesn't need to be anywhere near as large as RFC:E, especially with much fewer civs.

Second, why 476AD? I mean, I know why historically, but from a gameplay standpoint, is that when a scenario based on the ancient middle east SHOULD end? 600AD or so makes a bit more sense to me, or rather right before the Arabs took over the entire map. Or even 1450, to get the Turks and Mongols (and the Crusaders could spawn as barbarians. heh) Not that I think these are inherently better, but I think that focusing on the gameplay questions inherent would help focus the mod.

I'd also say that Parthia should be a playable civ, and you may need two Persias - Sassanid and Achaemanids/Medes.

Or, if you focused on simply the ancient Middle East (pre-Roman), you could have a much smaller map, faster gameplay, and fewer hard questions.

EDIT: Sumeria!

[ZachScape]

I would LOVE that! (I wouldn't be able to help much though. Just give support on the sidelines. I would research and throw out ideas, however. Just name it Zach's and Fall of Civilization) Although it should stretch to the Indus River, so the Alexandrian conquests could have the full effect.
Ever since I went over the Middle East in World History10, I fantasized about a RFC middle east, with the main civs as
-The Sumerians
-The Babylonians
-The Assyrians
-The Phoenicians
-The Hittites
-The Hebrews

I have thought about this for a long time, I HAVE to get this out.

-It would start around the Indo-European migrations. The main groups I have in mind are the Aryans, Iranians, and Anitolians. They would each have a settler and an archer traveling to their historical location, only able to found their first city on only one, historical plot. It'll be up to the action of the starting civs to allow the migration of such people, creating many diverse situations over the coarse of this theoretical mod. So there could be (if literally possible to code) many diverse combination of civs throughout the game. So say if the Iranians get caught before making their first settlement, Persia will never be formed, instead an independent.

-One technology would give a new feature: colonies. It would be 75% construction of settler, but no food detour. A colony would also have 50% maintenance cost. It would look like a fort, but it allows the plot the fort is founded on, plus one plot in any desired, adjacent location. (This would make it possible to snag a resource.) It would have a name, and a maximum of 4 population, each population representing 1 level.
-1. The starting level, no special features
-2. Ability to build a worker (since there would only be one plot, workers take long to load)
-3. Ability to build one archer (same as worker)
-4. Well, there really wouldn't be a four. Instead of four, the colony would become a city if desired.
-This would be a GREAT feature IMO, but hard one. The reason I really want it is because of the importance of Greek/Phoenician colonization of the Mediterranean.

-Civilizations like Carthage that were historically founded by a colony could only became a civilization in the game if it started as a colony, otherwise the city of Carthage would just pop up as an independent.
*NOTE* 1. The AI would be scripted to go after such plots, thus giving the player incentive motivation to either go after it if they would like to see/switch to Carthage, or not go after it for more diverse games.
*Note* 2. Carthage will ALWAYS spawn if someone would like to auto chooses to auto play as them.

So diversity between games is my main theme.
I would love to see these ideas, so just tell me if they are plausible/likable.

EDIT: You should put this site in the OP. It is one of my favorite wiki articles and has a great map of Greek and Phoenician colonies, as well as independent cities. Only problem is that it is only in German, but you get distinguish certain cities.

[Kalimakhus]

It is sure a good idea. I am for one will be quite pleased to have such mod to play and I think many others would be interested as well. Based on what 3Miro said the task should be much easier that it was for starting RFCE. I remember that the early trial of working on RFCE was mainly abandoned because of all the hardcoded data in the DLL code. I did thought of making the DLL as neutral as it can be so all the work would be done in XML and python. The task was too time consuming for me to tackle. I am both glad and impressed that 3Miro has actually done that

I haven't read the post where Jet mentioned TAM but anyway you should look it up. TAM covers the same time period and you can find some helpful resources in it. The tech tree, units, buildings and civs' UUs all these can provide you with ideas you will need.

[kravixon]

Fierabras- I plan on making a much larger map, however, when the time comes can I enlist your help with your random/non-random events. I like the idea of that.

As for the timeline, it wouldn't make sense for a mod based on ancient history to include the Turks and Mongols. Classical Antiquity ends somewhere in the ballpark of 476 AD (the last Roman Emperor). Rome was also the sole super power in the area; it's fall is a convenient and logical place to end the scenario.

Map-wise, I'd like the size of Greece and Italy for instance to be a little bit larger than it is in RFCE. I imagine it like this:

By cropping out land which would be mostly empty, we can make the map smaller while still having larger landmasses.

[BurnEmDown]

3000 B.C till 476 A.D sounds good, it connects with RFC:E, ending where RFC:E starts.
Who knows maybe after this mod is done another mod will be born called RFC:Industrial Age 1800-1918 and after that RFC: Modern World in the Making 1919-1992 (fall of USSR if I'm not mistaken?)

[st.lucifer]

I'd be interested in playing such a mod. I don't have time right now to create a map from scratch for it, but i'd be willing to give it a shot in June. If you can wait that long, great; if you can't, I could look at modifying an existing map - but I'm not going to be able to put much time into things until April at the earliest.

Still, it's a good proposal.

[Arkaeyn]

Originally Posted by kravixon

As for the timeline, it wouldn't make sense for a mod based on ancient history to include the Turks and Mongols. Classical Antiquity ends somewhere in the ballpark of 476 AD (the last Roman Emperor). Rome was also the sole super power in the area; it's fall is a convenient and logical place to end the scenario.

While it may make sense from a historical standpoint, it's odd from a gameplay standpoint, for several reasons. First of all, the Roman Empire didn't fall in 476 CE. The Western Roman Empire did. Second, going that far forward leads to a situation where, if the game progresses historically, Rome is the sole superpower for hundreds of turns, pretty much after 50 BCE. Who are they competing against? Carthage and the Celts are conquered, Eqypt and Greece vassalized, everyone else long gone. Only the Parthians/Sassanids would be even so much as an autonomous regional power. If, theoretically, Rome would have been the historical "winner" of such a scenario, then they would have "won" long before their collapse.

An alternate endpoint would be 300 BCE, and Alexander's conquests. That would allow for significantly smaller map, and a more focused "antiquity."

[ZachScape]

Ahhh (not scared, more of a wise ahh)... but that's why they call it Rhye's and Fall (well Rhye after the creator, but anyways... lol). With it starting so early, who says Rome has to ALWAYS be the superpower. What about Etrusca, Phoenicia, Greece, even the mighty Carthaginians (who would like to see that?!?? I mean that has got to be cool.) We should play until a time where the last civ spawned has enough playing time. I honestly would love to see an Etruscan superpower, but that is besides the point.
But even in Rome's glory years, they still had Persia (don't know the civ's real name. I just know it's Iranian based) to the east.

Well hopefully I sounded wiser than I felt. Thank god for parenthesis!

[kravixon]

Indeed. Playing as a non-Roman civ, it is unlikely that the AI Rome will conquer everything that the historical Rome did. If Rome does manage that feat, it's stability might be terrible and result in Carthage or Egypt respawning.

Another interesting idea would be to make one of the barbarians playable, say the Goths. They could even have a a UHV to sack Rome.

[War Bear]

Ostrogoths: Control Illyria and Italy by 476 AD?

Yeah, my guess is that AI Rome will have a difficulty getting into Gaul, knowing how unaggressive the AI is. They will be challenged enough as it is. Hell, even in Vanilla RFC I've had games in which Rome doesn't conquer all of the Celtic territory. Also, keep in mind, it was pointed out that Rome would be suffering stability problems due to occupying so many spawns. It would be a challenge for the player to keep out the barbarians and to prevent their empire from crumbling.

[BurnEmDown]

UP: No negative stability from controlling other civs' core areas? Either that or Vassalize.
Or wait, since the mod will have so few civs compared to other mods, maybe multiple UUs, UBs and UPs could be assign to each civ!