Should captured Vampires keep their abilities?

[Mesix]

Using the command promotions, a high level unit has a chance to capture a living unit after combat. Currently, all units in the game retain their abilities accept one: the Vampire. A Vampire that is captured through command can no longer feast. All national heroes (that are alive) can be captured and retain their abilities. All other unique units from other civs can likewise be captured with full functionality.

It has been suggested in other threads that allowing a functional Vampire to be captured would take away from the Calabim civ in some way. If this is true, then how about capturing Grigori Adventurers or Balseraph Mimics?

Only high level units can get the command ability. Attempting to capture a unit means risking the high level unit in combat. It is never guaranteed that defeating a unit in combat will result in a capture. It seems that there should be some reward for capturing the unit.

One possibility would be to disallow the gift vampirism ability. This would allow the player to have one unit that can feast without the ability to gift it to others. This may also make more sense thematically since a vampire still satisfies his hunger to feast, but he refuses to share the secret with other units of the civ that captured him.

What do you think? Is the Vampire unit so special that its main ability should be locked from all civs that capture it? What abilities should be disallowed if it is captured?

[Kenjister]

Thematically, I don't think it should be allowed. I mean, do you really want the guy you just captured to be walking around the city consuming your citizens souls at leisure? Typically Vampires are strong enough as is when captured so I don't think they need another boost.

[KillerClowns]

I like things as they are now; gifting is availible (IIRC) but feasting is not. Gifting is implied to require human sacrifice (as per Alexis 'pedia), so it should be unavailable to Good civs, though I can see neutral ones doing it. But Feasting is a decidedly Calabim enterprise; even the Sheaim treat their citizens better (or, at the very least, oppose wasting potential research subjects and worshipers of Agares as some vampire's lunch).

[cabbagemeister]

You underestimate how easy it is to capture vampires.

1) Archmages can capture them with Dominate
2) high Priests can capture them with Command promotions, as you mention
3) Even normal, straight off the assembly line priests can get the Command I promotion
4) Stephanos' Crown allows units to be captured.

It's really not that difficult at all to capture them. Also, captured vampires are not comparable to adventurers or mimics because neither one of those units has the unlimited combat-free xp potential that Vampires have. I think the current limit on non-Calabim Feasting is absolutely the best way to approach this issue.

[Iceciro]

Also, Balseraph Mimics cannot gift Mimicry to other units.

One Vampire can quickly make the entire Cabalim advantage obsolete.

[Avahz Darkwood]

Originally Posted by KillerClowns

I like things as they are now; gifting is availible (IIRC) but feasting is not. Gifting is implied to require human sacrifice (as per Alexis 'pedia), so it should be unavailable to Good civs, though I can see neutral ones doing it. But Feasting is a decidedly Calabim enterprise; even the Sheaim treat their citizens better (or, at the very least, oppose wasting potential research subjects and worshipers of Agares as some vampire's lunch).

I would have to agree! Feasting is a civ trait only for the Calabim, so the only thing you get from a captured vamp is the ability to gift it. It grants few abilities (IIRC +10% strength and healing rate)

[ExMachina]

Thematically, aren't vampires supposed to be utterly loyal to the one who created them? I don't think they should be capturable at all.

[cIV_khanh93]

thematically, aren't most units loyal? also thematically, dont people convert religions alot? isnt mind magic powerful? If you dont your vamps to get captured use the law I spell, its there fro a reason.

[Honor]

Originally Posted by ExMachina

Thematically, aren't vampires supposed to be utterly loyal to the one who created them? I don't think they should be capturable at all.

Interesting point. Does FfH have any lore that implies any part of the elder/child relationship/hierarchy between a vamp and the one who sired them?

[unclethrill]

They are vampires after all, shouldn't they be able to eat whoever they want. Just because they are captured doesn't mean they forget how to convert the blood of their victims into abilities such as Blitz and March.

[Mesix]

Originally Posted by KillerClowns

I like things as they are now; gifting is availible (IIRC) but feasting is not. Gifting is implied to require human sacrifice (as per Alexis 'pedia), so it should be unavailable to Good civs, though I can see neutral ones doing it. But Feasting is a decidedly Calabim enterprise; even the Sheaim treat their citizens better (or, at the very least, oppose wasting potential research subjects and worshipers of Agares as some vampire's lunch).

What exactly are they gifting if it is not the ability to feast? Are they just sacrificing people for no purpose?

"Check this out. I can slit this guy's throat over an altar. This is how I do it."

Captured Vampires without feast are kinda like wannabe ganstas from the subburbs.

"Look at me. I'm bad. I have a piece and listen to rap music. I got this cool Tatoo that says I am a gansta. Booyaka respect!"

Originally Posted by ExMachina

Thematically, aren't vampires supposed to be utterly loyal to the one who created them? I don't think they should be capturable at all.

There is an easy way to make them uncapturable...make them undead. If they are undead they should not be capturable...but if they are alive they should retain their abilities and hunger for human blood even under a new ruler.

[Brokenbone]

If Vampires were undead, "Command" promos wouldn't be much of a question... heh, different can of worms though, including concerns over Destroy Undead knocking 30th level megavampires off in one turn.

Anyhow, I do think "Feast" makes limited sense for non Calabim civs. Feast means knocking a population point off one of your cities, right? The Calabim people know to put up with this, i.e., they're oppressed, their culture works like that, their buildings harness that somewhat, they expect it as the human cattle they are.

Try pulling that in a different civ and maybe you'd need to have a horrible penalty unseen in Calabim lands. Maybe 10x as many people made unhappy, or health ratings drop through the floor, or every time you use it, 3 pop vanish (one eaten, two flee in terror). Yeah, I guess the net is that feasting in a land where they're used to icky breeding pits and horrible conditions is one thing, feasting in many other civs may need some kind of higher penalty. Whether the penalty gets worse along lines or lore, religion, alignment, can't say! I.e., Clan lands, oh well, some orcs got eaten vs. Elohim lands, horror and shock that you let your new pet vampire eat an orphanage associated with Cahir Abbey or something.

[KillerClowns]

Originally Posted by ExMachina

Thematically, aren't vampires supposed to be utterly loyal to the one who created them? I don't think they should be capturable at all.

To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been said of the subject of Erebus' vampires and their loyalty to the one who gifted them; it's all wild guessing. It might even be that Kael simply never thought of the question, meaning there is no "canon" answer (until he makes one). It might also be that he made some small, offhand comment about it back when I was playing vanilla civilization, in which case MagisterCultuum will be descending from on high complete with angelic chorus to quote it.
The best I can do is partake in my favorite past time: guess wildly from the flavor of Erebus and see if my answer ends up in the gray realm of canon-by-default. If there is a connection, I doubt it's any stronger then the bond between parent and child. Strong, but not unbreakable if the vampire in question is driven to shame and seeking repentance by some Prior... or offered a better deal by a Profane.

Originally Posted by Mesix

What exactly are they gifting if it is not the ability to feast? Are they just sacrificing people for no purpose?

"Check this out. I can slit this guy's throat over an altar. This is how I do it."

The extra strength and unnatural healing ability is a pretty sweet deal, even if you aren't allowed to turn large cities into buffets.

[Mesix]

Originally Posted by Brokenbone

If Vampires were undead, "Command" promos wouldn't be much of a question... heh, different can of worms though, including concerns over Destroy Undead knocking 30th level megavampires off in one turn.

I wouldn't have a problem with this. It gives them a weakness which seems good. Players with Life mana have the counter for the powerful Vampire Lords, so the Calabim need to send other units to fight them or risk their high level Vampires to destroy undead magic. It created a really good counter mechanic which makes for a good strategy game...and a good RPG as well.

[Mesix]

Originally Posted by KillerClowns

The extra strength and unnatural healing ability is a pretty sweet deal, even if you aren't allowed to turn large cities into buffets.

...but what is he gifting???

In the lore, Alexis figures out how to create wards that prevent a sacrificed human soul from escaping allowing her to capture the soul and become the first Vampire. She taught Flavros how to do this through demonstration. She was teaching him to feast and in doing so gifting vampirism. Without the warding it is just human sacrifice.

What is being gifted? Either a human is sacrificed and the soul is allowed to escape to the Vault...or wards prevent the soul from escaping and it can be feasted upon. There really is no half way. A Vampire feasts and a nonvampire does not feast. The pedia entry and mouse over for the Vampirism promo both say that it allows feast, feed, and gift vampirism abilities.

[Kenjister]

Well, you can look at it like this: A Vampire needs very little subjects over the years to survive. They don't need to eat souls constantly. Feasting on the other hand is devouring a LARGE amount of any given population. I can't see any ruler of any country wantonly wasting thier populace like that simply to suit the whims of some guy you captured. Sure you may let him eat one or two criminals, but Feasting is entirely different matter.

[Nikis-Knight]

The mouseover help should be clarified, that's a good point.

In the Vampire entry, I think, it states that all vampies can trace their lineage back to Alexis &/or Flauros, but doesn't state that they have any special loyalty. I think it is more likely that senior vampires are expected to keep thier brood in line. Also, I expect that Vampires are more narcisstic than before, and thus probably less loyal than comprable troops, except for the fact that they other lands are unlikely to take them and they would be hunted down for betraying the Calabim.

But this should be a gameplay decision. I think it's fine as is, but perhaps the ai need to know when to feast, and thus gaining them would mean getting high powered units already.

[Tyrs]

Just to clarify further, FfH vampires aren't undead like more vampire fiction is. They only need a victim every 30 or so years as they age. Sunlight is uncomfortable, but not killing. The massive feasting of many individuals grants strength and powers e.i. exp.
I kinda like the idea of them not being able to gift, but that one vampire can feast, from a gameplay vantage. Your whole civ's lvl 6 units don't become vampires, which would be strange rp wise, but that one unit still maintains the cool bonus.

[Fafnir13]

I voted keep all abilities but with one caveat. A vampire feasting will not go over very well at all. In some ways, the Calabim are used to it, but even then they still get a small bit of unhappiness. For civs that haven't been ruled over by vampire lords for centuries, the penalties would be severe. Non-Calabim players should get a big unhappiness hit as well as a few turns of outright civil disorder. This means you can still make full use of all vampiric abilities but with a cost to consider.
I like keeping vampire abilities as it keeps vampires around even after the Calabim have been extinguished and opens the door for perhaps some even based vampirism popping up. The Calabim would still be the only ones able to produce these monsters on demand, so I don't think it nudges into their territory too much.

[zup]

The Elohim probably pity that one vampire, seeing his gift as a curse. They might seek alternative cures to vampirism, which do not involve guns. If he never got caught getting his once-in-thirty-years fix, they just might let it pass. As much as Einion and Ethne are hippies, even they have streaks of rationality. But I am pretty sure they draw a line in making thousands of people, more likely tens or hundreds of thousands of people, into some kind of a gourmet banquet.