Bee Line Metal Casting

[budweiser]

I'd like to get some thoughts on this strategy. I think it has potential for seafood starts, especially Carthage (fishing & mining) and possibly some IND civs.

Metal Casting only requires BW & pottery. On some starts it's possible to research pottery after the wheel and then go BW to MC. However, it may be better to do BW first to see if bronze is revealed, then get pottery and or a 2nd city.

It's a long way to MC it cost 450 beakers. But to help you get there you have water tile bonus and cottages from pottery. You have things to build like granary, workers, maybe boats as scouts, settlers, maybe axemen.

I played a few starts to try this out and was getting MC around 1500BC on normal maps. Once you get it, you can get a bonus to production, possible happy increases if you have precious metals, maturing cottages, and a really strong tech for trading.

[MkLh]

You can get MC by 1500BC with Oracle. I don't know if it is worth it to beeline it manually and delay crucial techs like Writing.

[budweiser]

Originally Posted by MkLh

You can get MC by 1500BC with Oracle. I don't know if it is worth it to beeline it manually and delay crucial techs like Writing.

Mathematically speaking, it may come out faster if you 'delay' it by grabbing writng in 10 turns or so and putting in a lib and then finishing it off.

Those early religious techs are really pretty cheap once you get some economy going. You may be able to catch up and still get the Oracle. It usually goes around 1200 and 1500 to MC was just a few sub optimal runs I tried.

[Joshua368]

Early metal casting can be useful, expecially for industrious civs, but it seems silly to go research it manually when you can take the oracle slingshot so easily.

[oyzar]

Metalcasting is far overrated, especially with non-industrious civs. Colossus is good when you want to work a lot of coastal tiles, but that is not going to happen until you have a decent amount of cities that are working pretty much all their other tiles(meaning you need at least monarchy as well). It certainly isn't worth what those beakers could get you otherwise. Forges are not something you want to build early game. They are expensive and takes quite a long time to pay off in small cities. Early game you have so much other things to spend hammers on.. It just isn't worth it to get it for something you don't even really want to build.

[Bleys]

I am with oyz, there are a lot more effective lines of play. If I am IND and plan the Oracle, then absolutely, its a strong tech that opens a cheap Wonder (IND + Copper = a whip and a chop, especially since you need a Forge first). But if I am not IND, I dont even build the Oracle anymore, because I need other things more urgently. About the only time I build the Oracle if I am not IND is if I can settle my 2nd city ON Marble because there is another important resource there, like Copper or Horses. If I have to build a Quarry, forget it, the Oracle just goes too early.

[madscientist]

I disagree, Metal Casting early is very valuable although I would only do the Oracle slingshot. What you get

1) Forges which boost production.

2) Happiness from forges if you have silver/gold/gems. Monarchy and calendar can be greatly delayed.

3) Triemes: With Barb Galleys these are pretty handy. They also allow blockading of AI coastal cities to cripple them during wars.

4) Potential getting an early Great Engineer by early access to an engineer specialist. I believe a GE can bulb Machinery real early.

5) First crack at the Colossus which is one of those the earlier the better wonders.

Is it worth skipping so many early techs??? not sure about that. Nor am I sure it's better to pursue the relisous techs to slingshot it. Good post though, something to think about.

EDIT

6) One of the best trade bait early techs!

[Bleys]

Originally Posted by madscientist

4) Potential getting an early Great Engineer by early access to an engineer specialist. I believe a GE can bulb Machinery real early.

This is one of the better reasons, whether you want the GE for a tech or a big Wonder like the Mids or GL. Its a very strong tactic with Qin, especially if you pre-chop and get that Forge up fast to run the Engineer. He can get to Chu's very fast like this, but its sort of level-dependent how effective it is. Someone was running some good looking theory test games about this, was a good thread.

[budweiser]

Originally Posted by Bleys

This is one of the better reasons, whether you want the GE for a tech or a big Wonder like the Mids or GL. Its a very strong tactic with Qin, especially if you pre-chop and get that Forge up fast to run the Engineer. He can get to Chu's very fast like this, but its sort of level-dependent how effective it is. Someone was running some good looking theory test games about this, was a good thread.

More like 2 plus engineers if you can get 1 each established in 2+ cites. You would get an Eng in 30, then another in 30. You could build the mids, or HG for more Eng points. Consider this as either Greek.

[brianb1974]

I fail to see why you would ever actually beeline and hard-research MC rather than building oracle for it.

[Bostock]

You're Qin and you're feeling reeeeally lucky?

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by brianb1974

I fail to see why you would ever actually beeline and hard-research MC rather than building oracle for it.

Because you can be building axes or settlers in the capital rather than the Oracle. Also you would have had to tech at least mysticism/meditation/priesthood then build the thing.

The idea here I think is to tech BW and Pottery, good enough for military and the economy, then hit MC.

Any early wonder comes at a certain price, sometimes it's not prudent such as when you have a war-monger like SHaka/Monty/Khan nearby or an easy sap like Gandhi/Liz/Fred.

One thing though, I would definitely take writing first as those extra ascientists from libraries would certainly speed MC along.

[Duckweed]

Agree on most of madscientist's opinion. In high level, you just can't get oracle without early commercial resource in BFC. AI beats you to get it through Oracle. However it is still one of the available and valuable tech for you to trade around early on. Ind leader should prioritize it.

[GoodGame]

I have to go with Iron Working > Metal Casting if you aren't industrious. And the Oracle is lucky shot or a crutch. Exception would be if your situation makes Triremes > Swords.

[TheMeInTeam]

I hate when barb galleys get in my face, but even in games like LHC MC is usually a suboptimal route. I mean, maybe if you got at least 2 of the resources for which forges add (although your position would obviously be strong then regardless), but otherwise it's too important to be able to get a GS, grow cities, etc. rather than build triremes and forges. IND moves MC slightly higher in my priority. Obviously it's not a bad oracle tech either since it's expensive and if had early it will trade pretty well. A beeline though? On MOST starts, it slows you down an awful lot...

[Grey Fox]

You can also bulb it if you get an early great merchant, like if you build the Great Lighthouse early.

[Earthling]

Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 4 water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by Earthling

Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 4 water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

At emperor I will usually trade it maybe three times. Once for alphabet and extras, a second time for Math and/or ironworking with a weaker religious techs, third CoL or currency, maybe also monarchy. What I get in return can frequently be offered for missing techs. Since there is nothing larger in beakers until Fuedalism the AI will be rather generous. Obviously if your the tech leader it's a moot point.

[Duckweed]

Originally Posted by Earthling

Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 4 water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

Actually if one AI get it from Oracle (very often this is the case), other AIs tend to ignore for a long time.

[JammerUno]

MC for industious leaders is great, extra happiness coupled to extra production and a cheap wonder that obsoletes at astro, which is far, far away when you finish it. The colossus is good economic value if you're working a good amount of decent water tiles. Freshwater lakes with the colossus are good, seafood gets better.

If you see an oppertunity to grab the oracle, and your get cheap forges, MC is as good a choice as aesthetics.