Death Affinity for Spectres? Put a cap on it?

[PaleJackal]

I am aware this may fall under the "win more category" as opposed to causing you to win the game... but Death Affinity seems rather potent. If you possess say, 4 mana nodes, which doesn't seem too crazy (i.e. it doesn't mean you've won the game), you can Metamagic one node, and Death Node the other three.

If you're playing as the Sheaim, for example, that means your Spectres will have 7 Strength. If you produce the Tower of Necromancy, your Spectres will now have 9 Strength.

I know I could also just stop using such tactics if I think it's particularly broken... but what do you think?

[Thunder_Gr]

Well, I think that you need more nodes to do what you say. ToN also needs 3 more types of mana. It is highly unlikely to get hold of 4 nodes early,even in huge maps, anyway, and, if you are not Amurites, you have to wait until Sorcery(IIRC), to be able to build metamagic nodes.(Amurites simply do not have to build them. If you want to build them, you should wait until Sorcery, too).
So, I do not think there should be a kind of limit to any affinities. Mana nodes are difficult to get hold of in great numbers, and getting some advandages out of them is a good thing.

[Senethro]

High Strength spectres are troubling but are also very inflexible and difficult to hide. Other players may catch on to your ploy when they see all the skull symbols in your territory. Fortunately for everyone else, Champions with Shock I and Undead Slaying will have 125% against them. Enchanted Blade and Bless can make this 195%. If the tactic was invisible and could be done as a safe rush it would be problematic.

Edit: Miscalculation. Bless will give 195% on the bonus point of strength while the other 8 will be 145%.

[odalrick]

I don't think strength 7 spectres sounds particularly impressive...

Sorcery is fairly late game, so you'll be facing enemies that has had time to research counters, and you're relying on being able to keep you mages safe.

Granted, the computer in incapable of implementing such a counter. But it is incapable of all military actions, so that doesn't really indicate anything.

( I was just playing a game where the Amurites kept declaring war on me and all the time I'm thinking: Why? Your pitiful army of axemen is no match for my warriors. )

[cyther]

Many units have a resistance or immunity to death strength as well.

[JonathanStrange]

Plus Death mana was outlawed by the Overcouncil in 4353 B.E.

[civ_king]

If you have over 5 every one after that should be +2 affinity IMHO

[Luckmann]

Originally Posted by odalrick

I don't think strength 7 spectres sounds particularly impressive...
[...]

I don't think the point is that it's particulary impressive on it's own, but that you can easily spam massive amounts of Spectres in a very short time. Especially as Sheaim or Calabim.

[civ_king]

but I like my army of ~25 mages spamming specters, and my Eater of dreams taking over a city and just chain spamming em

[Earthling]

Originally Posted by Luckmann

I don't think the point is that it's particulary impressive on it's own, but that you can easily spam massive amounts of Spectres in a very short time. Especially as Sheaim or Calabim.

That's exactly the point - a Spectre is effectively a 0 hammer but powerful enough unit (or maybe something like 10, a small fraction of the cost of a mage). However, as it is now I think Spectres are ok - Death mana is very powerful but it's supposed to be. I'd actually like to see Entropy or perhaps Shadow buffed a little more too (Death is strong from its first level spell). This was the reason why I had a problem with 3 turns of summoner though - simply too many Spectres (and of course tier 3 summons) around at once. But as it is now Death is quite strong but not too overpowered.

As I've said before, though, the real concern I have is that such mana is far too easy to use if you aren't evil - the Overcouncil is really a joke to human players in that regard, if you even bother to turn your Sheiam or Calabim good... Sure, things like undead slaying and the life II spell are good counters - my concern is that armies of skellies shouldn't really be fighting alongside confessors themselves! But this does sound like a slightly more significant change to the game as a whole (railroading players more into alignment/lore based stuff) - so if you're solely interested in gameplay I guess it's best to recognize that Death magic as it is now is a strong imbalance in the player's favor but you can choose to use it or not.

[Lone Wolf]

my concern is that armies of skellies shouldn't really be fighting alongside confessors themselves!

Why not? They are fighting For The Greater Good. The Skeletons and Specters should be proud to serve under the noble flags of Bannor...

[DioBrando]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

Why not? They are fighting For The Greater Good. The Skeletons and Specters should be proud to serve under the noble flags of Bannor...

Exactly! Dead crusaders are still crusaders, even if reanimated

[hbar]

Why not just have the diplomatic penalty from death mana stack?

[notque]

Originally Posted by odalrick

I don't think strength 7 spectres sounds particularly impressive...

Sorcery is fairly late game, so you'll be facing enemies that has had time to research counters, and you're relying on being able to keep you mages safe.

Granted, the computer in incapable of implementing such a counter. But it is incapable of all military actions, so that doesn't really indicate anything.

( I was just playing a game where the Amurites kept declaring war on me and all the time I'm thinking: Why? Your pitiful army of axemen is no match for my warriors. )

Power isn't relevant in AI war decisions. (well, it is but to a level that starts mattering at 2.5 the strength of the other civ iirc)

Try out the Minor Leaders Mod and you'll see the Ai capable of military actions. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to build a counter system for the AI. Based on units they see from you, if they are at war, or planning for a war. Ideally planning.

Then they could go research a particular counter.

Just takes work to write, and a lot of testing.

[PotatoOverdose]

Originally Posted by JonathanStrange

Plus Death mana was outlawed by the Overcouncil in 4353 B.E.

Laws. Hehe. You're funny. The only law is the law of the axe. Or some offensive magic spell, depending on your proffered method of killing. But seriously, Death mana, at least in theory, has plenty of counters (namely:non-living units).

[odalrick]

Originally Posted by Luckmann

I don't think the point is that it's particulary impressive on it's own, but that you can easily spam massive amounts of Spectres in a very short time. Especially as Sheaim or Calabim.

Shearim pay 90 and 60ish for two spectres. They heal at the start of every other turn though, along with losing all promotions.

Calabim get them essentially as a freebee, but paraphrasing: "Vampires can summon hordes of spectres to support them in combat. They don't need them, of course, it just goes with the overall image." Also, amassing death mana isn't exactly free.

There are counters available, for instance, you could hit the mages with assassins, kill the spectres with destroy undead or pillage a few death nodes. It's just that the AI is unable to implement them, so massive spectre spam looks powerful.

Originally Posted by notque

Power isn't relevant in AI war decisions. (well, it is but to a level that starts mattering at 2.5 the strength of the other civ iirc)

Try out the Minor Leaders Mod and you'll see the Ai capable of military actions. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to build a counter system for the AI. Based on units they see from you, if they are at war, or planning for a war. Ideally planning.

Then they could go research a particular counter.

Just takes work to write, and a lot of testing.

Actually it was with the Minor Leaders Mod.

And I don't mind the theoretical quick high risk raid. It's the repeated war declarations with no backing that bother me. If the AI attacks me, and I spank their invasion force, it would be nice if they wouldn't declare war again without doubling the size of the invasion force. Just don't attack me repeatedly just because last time I didn't bother to wipe you out.

[Rystic]

Originally Posted by odalrick

Shearim pay 90 and 60ish for two spectres. They heal at the start of every other turn though, along with losing all promotions.

When do the Sheaim pay this?

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd guess it is the cost of an adept plus an upgrade to a mage. Of course, the Sheaim can also summon Spectres with Mobius Witches, which come for free with a Mage Guild and Planar Gate, but that is probably more expensive and harder to control.

[odalrick]

Yes, the cost for a mage. I mean, if you're summoning a spectre every turn, is the mage doing anything else worthwhile?

And Moebius Witches cost 220 (settler) + 300 (planar gate) + mage guild ( 120 ?)

Sure, there are mitigating factors, but the point is that spectres aren't free.

[notque]

Originally Posted by odalrick

Actually it was with the Minor Leaders Mod.

And I don't mind the theoretical quick high risk raid. It's the repeated war declarations with no backing that bother me. If the AI attacks me, and I spank their invasion force, it would be nice if they wouldn't declare war again without doubling the size of the invasion force. Just don't attack me repeatedly just because last time I didn't bother to wipe you out.

I agree it should be one, and I plan on adding it, but right now power is not part of the AI's war planning in BTS/FFH/FF/MinorLeaders.