SGOTM 09 - Team CFR - Page 10

Balbes · Apr 09, 2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obormot

I think we planned to have most of the discussion at CFC, but it proved very hard not to use an online chat when all the team members speak the same language and are located in a more or less the same timezone

No, it is very easy. Just don't use it, simple as that. You can refer to Team CFR's threads in past SGOTMs and e.g. Murky Waters' threads in recents SGOTMs for several examples of a team that discussed everything at this forum and still managed to win, somehow, all the while doing a valuable community service. In comparison, this thread looks almost entirely devoid of content.

Obormot · Apr 09, 2009, 05:34 AM

It is easy for me or for you, but not for everyone in the team.

Balbes · Apr 09, 2009, 05:40 AM

They should make an effort, then.
Is the majority of the team comfortable with having all the fun to ourselves while contributing nothing?

Dynamic · Apr 09, 2009, 05:52 AM

Hmmm... We already posted 5K strings in Skype. Of course, the most of it is short so effective amount is 1/3 of this volume. But in any case it's equal to 1.5K posts here so you can feel the efficiency...
And I'm not sure this post swamp is good for reading. May be the better way is posting here resumes but not all replies...

Obormot · Apr 09, 2009, 05:56 AM

I think the best solution would be to place all the people who are not fluent in english into team CRC and let them discuss everything on their own forum, while others should be discussing everything at this forum. But for this game it is too late already. We should, of course, try to post more here, but I am afraid that dropping the skype chat at all won't be possible.

Dynamic · Apr 09, 2009, 06:03 AM

Balbes, have you red skype logs on CFR forum? If you made it let's discuss here. And again, what is your timezone now? The most intensive discussion is usually between 21h and 24h Moscow zone.

Lexad · Apr 09, 2009, 06:18 AM

Da! Is true! Discuss here with this time.

Dynamic · Apr 09, 2009, 01:54 PM

It looks like I was wrong about Murky. I try to calculate their game and I can catch the Score, Power and Culture but can't understand the reesons for suh way at 100%.
2020BC:
Tech: Agri-AH-Writing-Myst-Medi-Priest.
2 Cities with summary 8 pops.
2 Warriors
Early Library and GS in 1-2 turns.
May be they chose such sequence because religious techs are very hard bought or didn't expect the second AI...
But all my calcs is true for Fish city only, not Marble but in this case they should build Oracle without Marble... May be it's their starting strategy when they didn't know about Marble...

Dynamic · Apr 09, 2009, 01:55 PM

OT4E is preparing for next session till 1000BC.

Obormot · Apr 09, 2009, 11:13 PM

We should trade for AH first, because if we find horses somewhere we might need to change our worker action plan. I still didn't move the workers on my last turn.

If we have no horses we can use the worker sequence from my plan since I have everything calculated up to 1000BC, but it might still need some adjustments. Note that worker #1 was sent to the tile 1S of Athens, not 2S, because as Dynamic said, river corners don't give the extra coin for the FPs. This should also lead to several minor changes in the following 10 turns. Then I am also not sure what to build in Sparta & Corinth. More workers, I guess, but its not certain.

Obormot · Apr 10, 2009, 05:03 AM

We should also not forget about the barb galley east of Sparta. We have not reached the date when random barb units start entering cultural boundaries, but we may reach it soon, so perhaps we should research sailing before math and build a galley in Sparta to protect our fish net.

Lexad · Apr 10, 2009, 05:16 AM

It's not the date, it's the number of cities per player living that matters, and with us and Babylon having 3 cities and Portugal - 2, I believe we're already there. Sailing should be our next target after Oracle, both for resource defence and trade with Portugal - if we do not get it from trade by then.

Obormot · Apr 10, 2009, 05:19 AM

What exactly are the rules for this?

Lexad · Apr 10, 2009, 05:25 AM

If I remember correctly, spawned land barbs will start purposefully enter the territory (not just attacking borderline improvements and units) when there is above 1.5 cities per player alive.

OT4E · Apr 10, 2009, 05:27 AM

turn40:
Writing <-> Animal husbandry (Hammurappi)
Writing <-> Mining (Joao)
No horses on the entire explored map. AI refuses to trade any other tech including Bronse working.
tech 0%+25
Worker#2 gone to sheeps.
Worker#3 gone NE, E
Scout NE, nothing special

turn41:
barbarian galley appeared at the east
barbarian warrior appeared at the south west
tech 100% -4
worker#2 started pasture
worker#3 started FP
Scout SE, found oil in the desert.

tech42:
barbarians dissappeared
reaserched mysticism
Athens grown to 6 and finished granary, starts library. Recent pop works new FP at S.
session is over

Lexad · Apr 10, 2009, 05:30 AM

Barbs seem to arrive very fast at Sailing if Gyathaar didn't give them tech directly. That means strong city. The key problem for barbs, limiting their research, is usually city upkeep, as they have no capital and suffer maximum distance-from-palace penalty. However, this particular city could've neutralised all upkeep by having a combo of chouse, rathaus, ikhanda and ziggurat (I wonder if they can have negative city maintenance cost).

Obormot · Apr 10, 2009, 05:48 AM

No horses, so it looks like we don't need to change much in the plan for worker actions. But we have to decide what to build in Sparta & Corinth. And perhaps we should adjust the plan to research sailing if we cannot trade for it & build the galley for protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexad

If I remember correctly, spawned land barbs will start purposefully enter the territory (not just attacking borderline improvements and units) when there is above 1.5 cities per player alive.

OT4E just played two turns to get the trades done, and saw the barbs walking around, but not entering the cultural borders. So we are still in the safe zone, and the rule about 1.5 cities is wrong.

Lexad · Apr 10, 2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

So we are still in the safe zone, and the rule about 1.5 cities is wrong.

Do not forget default barb AI is rather purposeless and stochastic - unless you manually switch it for CITY_ATTACK or CITY_ATTACK_LEMMING, for example. In Pitboss I'm having a barb warrior next to my city coming from direction with no units or improvements, while average number of cities is below 2 by far. So no, we're not in the safe zone.

Obormot · Apr 10, 2009, 06:09 AM

This is contrary to my experience. The randomly spawned barbs will indeed wander purposelessly, without entering cultural borders for some time, but then at a certain point they all start attacking nearest cities.

Lexad · Apr 10, 2009, 06:21 AM

Not contrary to mine, though - experienced barb wandering off several times even in mid-game.

Apr 09, 2009, 05:52 AM	#184
Dynamic But not hurry Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Somewhere in the world Posts: 1,119	Hmmm... We already posted 5K strings in Skype. Of course, the most of it is short so effective amount is 1/3 of this volume. But in any case it's equal to 1.5K posts here so you can feel the efficiency... And I'm not sure this post swamp is good for reading. May be the better way is posting here resumes but not all replies... __________________ Predator for ever... in Civ3, now Contender in Civ4.

Apr 09, 2009, 06:03 AM	#186
Dynamic But not hurry Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Somewhere in the world Posts: 1,119	Balbes, have you red skype logs on CFR forum? If you made it let's discuss here. And again, what is your timezone now? The most intensive discussion is usually between 21h and 24h Moscow zone. __________________ Predator for ever... in Civ3, now Contender in Civ4.

Apr 09, 2009, 06:18 AM	#187
Lexad royalcrownchinpokomaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 2,334	Da! Is true! Discuss here with this time. __________________ The commander must be like the eagle and see the whole, and yet still be like the hawk and see every detail. And if he acts like a common tit, he can hang upside down all day and eat fat bacon. Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Apr 09, 2009, 01:54 PM	#188
Dynamic But not hurry Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Somewhere in the world Posts: 1,119	It looks like I was wrong about Murky. I try to calculate their game and I can catch the Score, Power and Culture but can't understand the reesons for suh way at 100%. 2020BC: Tech: Agri-AH-Writing-Myst-Medi-Priest. 2 Cities with summary 8 pops. 2 Warriors Early Library and GS in 1-2 turns. May be they chose such sequence because religious techs are very hard bought or didn't expect the second AI... But all my calcs is true for Fish city only, not Marble but in this case they should build Oracle without Marble... May be it's their starting strategy when they didn't know about Marble... __________________ Predator for ever... in Civ3, now Contender in Civ4.

Apr 09, 2009, 01:55 PM	#189
Dynamic But not hurry Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Somewhere in the world Posts: 1,119	OT4E is preparing for next session till 1000BC. __________________ Predator for ever... in Civ3, now Contender in Civ4.

Apr 09, 2009, 05:34 AM	#182
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	It is easy for me or for you, but not for everyone in the team.

Apr 09, 2009, 05:40 AM	#183
Balbes Instigator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tokyo-Moscow Posts: 609	They should make an effort, then. Is the majority of the team comfortable with having all the fun to ourselves while contributing nothing?

Apr 09, 2009, 05:56 AM	#185
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	I think the best solution would be to place all the people who are not fluent in english into team CRC and let them discuss everything on their own forum, while others should be discussing everything at this forum. But for this game it is too late already. We should, of course, try to post more here, but I am afraid that dropping the skype chat at all won't be possible.

Apr 09, 2009, 11:13 PM	#190
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	We should trade for AH first, because if we find horses somewhere we might need to change our worker action plan. I still didn't move the workers on my last turn. If we have no horses we can use the worker sequence from my plan since I have everything calculated up to 1000BC, but it might still need some adjustments. Note that worker #1 was sent to the tile 1S of Athens, not 2S, because as Dynamic said, river corners don't give the extra coin for the FPs. This should also lead to several minor changes in the following 10 turns. Then I am also not sure what to build in Sparta & Corinth. More workers, I guess, but its not certain.

Apr 10, 2009, 05:03 AM	#191
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	We should also not forget about the barb galley east of Sparta. We have not reached the date when random barb units start entering cultural boundaries, but we may reach it soon, so perhaps we should research sailing before math and build a galley in Sparta to protect our fish net.

Apr 10, 2009, 05:16 AM	#192
Lexad royalcrownchinpokomaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 2,334	It's not the date, it's the number of cities per player living that matters, and with us and Babylon having 3 cities and Portugal - 2, I believe we're already there. Sailing should be our next target after Oracle, both for resource defence and trade with Portugal - if we do not get it from trade by then. __________________ The commander must be like the eagle and see the whole, and yet still be like the hawk and see every detail. And if he acts like a common tit, he can hang upside down all day and eat fat bacon. Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Apr 10, 2009, 05:19 AM	#193
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	What exactly are the rules for this?

Apr 10, 2009, 05:25 AM	#194
Lexad royalcrownchinpokomaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 2,334	If I remember correctly, spawned land barbs will start purposefully enter the territory (not just attacking borderline improvements and units) when there is above 1.5 cities per player alive. __________________ The commander must be like the eagle and see the whole, and yet still be like the hawk and see every detail. And if he acts like a common tit, he can hang upside down all day and eat fat bacon. Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Apr 10, 2009, 05:27 AM	#195
OT4E Chieftain Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 90	turn40: Writing <-> Animal husbandry (Hammurappi) Writing <-> Mining (Joao) No horses on the entire explored map. AI refuses to trade any other tech including Bronse working. tech 0%+25 Worker#2 gone to sheeps. Worker#3 gone NE, E Scout NE, nothing special turn41: barbarian galley appeared at the east barbarian warrior appeared at the south west tech 100% -4 worker#2 started pasture worker#3 started FP Scout SE, found oil in the desert. tech42: barbarians dissappeared reaserched mysticism Athens grown to 6 and finished granary, starts library. Recent pop works new FP at S. session is over

Apr 10, 2009, 05:30 AM	#196
Lexad royalcrownchinpokomaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 2,334	Barbs seem to arrive very fast at Sailing if Gyathaar didn't give them tech directly. That means strong city. The key problem for barbs, limiting their research, is usually city upkeep, as they have no capital and suffer maximum distance-from-palace penalty. However, this particular city could've neutralised all upkeep by having a combo of chouse, rathaus, ikhanda and ziggurat (I wonder if they can have negative city maintenance cost). __________________ The commander must be like the eagle and see the whole, and yet still be like the hawk and see every detail. And if he acts like a common tit, he can hang upside down all day and eat fat bacon. Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Apr 10, 2009, 06:09 AM	#199
Obormot Old warmonger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russia Posts: 1,781	This is contrary to my experience. The randomly spawned barbs will indeed wander purposelessly, without entering cultural borders for some time, but then at a certain point they all start attacking nearest cities.

Apr 10, 2009, 06:21 AM	#200
Lexad royalcrownchinpokomaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 2,334	Not contrary to mine, though - experienced barb wandering off several times even in mid-game. __________________ The commander must be like the eagle and see the whole, and yet still be like the hawk and see every detail. And if he acts like a common tit, he can hang upside down all day and eat fat bacon. Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

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