THE Noble's Club Bullpen, MK II

[dalamb]

I'm slowly editing a map for Qin, to gerrymander it to my tastes, but someone else is welcome to host some other leader soon if I'm being too slow.

[dalamb]

I'm still waffling over what exactly I want from the Qin map, but decided that with 2 essays to finish this week I'll be wanting to kill something instead. We haven't done JC yet, and I think a Praetorian romp would suit my mood; I'd edit the map to make sure iron was within range for a decent 2nd city if it weren't already available near the start.

But I don't want a standard kill-everything-on-Pangaea. I'd want at least 2 continents so the game would have to get at least as far as Astronomy, which means Praetorians would be obsolete. Maybe Rome would have to build a few Forums. So I'd appreciate some advice on how to make the map interesting. Some half-baked ideas I was considering:

1. Standard 2 continents; both would be about equal by default. Seems a bit boring but easy to set up. Maybe add some territory to one of them and one more civilization, so there's a bit more to conquer early on?
2. Generate 3 continents but connect 2 so there was a bigger romp in the "old world" but still one separate continent to invade later? I imagine I'd have to carefully ensure the old world wasn't trivial to take via domination -- or is that not an issue for other people? If domination on the original continent were possible but difficult, that might meet my criteria for fun.
3. What about big-and-small or hemispheres? I think one of them puts everybody on the "old world" with barbs on the new; are both like that? Sirian's guide doesn't mention them and Mortac's doesn't mention the old world/new world thing (so maybe neither has this property?)
   I'm not so sure I'd want everyone in the old world; it would be kind of like a smaller pangaea, easier to conquer. Start with one of them but WB to teleport one civ there?
4. Is there some other map type I should consider?

I'm hoping to build this map during a break from brainwork tonight or tomorrow; second essay is due around 3pm EST Wednesday the 14th, so I'd love to start bashing things not too long after that.

[Amao]

a large or huge map pretty much will do the work. i remember in the GOTM 1, most early dominations wins were using fast astro beelines and took the other continent or 2 with cats and praets. so, 2 or 3 continents doesn't stop noble praets from conquering the world, only ironless will do.

[cripp7]

I think 2 continents would suffice. You can still load a lot of preats/trebs on galleons to do the job.

[Groogaroo]

Originally Posted by cripp7

I think 2 continents would suffice.

I agree.

Any large or Huge maps would probably frazzle my laptop so sticking to standard gets my vote.

I've never actually played JC, guess I've just avoided praets as I'm a better builder than a war mongerer, but it should be fun.

[dalamb]

Originally Posted by Groogaroo

guess I've just avoided praets as I'm a better builder than a war mongerer, but it should be fun.

Some experienced players consider Praetorians overpowered*, which may be why nobody put together an NC yet. But I'm still not good at war, so I can probably actually learn something useful by playing them.

*But then there was the always-war, raging-barbs GOTM a while back. Even Rome had some trouble!

[cripp7]

Originally Posted by Groogaroo

I agree.

Any large or Huge maps would probably frazzle my laptop so sticking to standard gets my vote.

I've never actually played JC, guess I've just avoided praets as I'm a better builder than a war mongerer, but it should be fun.

I've actually never won a large/huge map yet!

[dalamb]

I've only won 1 "huge" map, and it was a European start on Earth 18, which likely shouldn't count.

[dalamb]

NC XXXV with Julius Caesar is up. I'll likely post the Qin map after I finish playing this one out -- which, given how slow I am, may give somebody else the opportunity to post NC 36.

[TheMeInTeam]

Oooh! You gave me the link and everything! I'm happy. The OP is updated. I like this...it makes it easy on me .

[Amao]

Originally Posted by dalamb

NC XXXV with Julius Caesar is up. I'll likely post the Qin map after I finish playing this one out -- which, given how slow I am, may give somebody else the opportunity to post NC 36.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Oooh! You gave me the link and everything! I'm happy. The OP is updated. I like this...it makes it easy on me .

Thanks, guys. I like NC series.

[dalamb]

Someone though I had (or ought to?) pick opponents in the NC 35 (Julius) game. Do y'all find that sort of thing attractive? Should it be a factor in my long-delayed Qin game?

Qin is supposed to allow two specific things:

• Hunkering down to wonderspam towards a space victory (my preference). Maybe edit in a choke point or two if necessary.
• Combat fun with Cho-Ko-Nus (mostly for other people, but maybe a bit for me too).
• Some early trading possible, but some ocean travel also possibly useful.

I had meant to leave opponents random, but could, for example, pick a nearby warmonger so you have to leverage PRO to turtle up like I wanted.

[TheMeInTeam]

It never works out the way you want, players often find ways to deal with the warmongers or just rush them out.

But there's nothing wrong with hand-picking opposition per se. You may recall I even added minor civs and other surprises in games past .

[Ignorant Teacher]

I guess this is the right place to ask. What do you think the new noble players should have in mind when starting to play on Noble? Many people see this level as their limit, what could help them? What made you master Noble?

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by Ignorant Teacher

I guess this is the right place to ask. What do you think the new noble players should have in mind when starting to play on Noble? Many people see this level as their limit, what could help them? What made you master Noble?

Game spam .

No, not really. Although I stared out on settler due to limited civ experience, I blew right through noble easily once I got there similar to other posters now at immortal+. I didn't even remotely struggle until monarch (which I won early after trying), and for me the real push didn't start until emperor. But the question seems to be...why do some people get stuck?

My closest guess is that they actually see the level as their limit! There's no reason for that ---> many players have managed to win on deity. The important thing is to analyze in each game what is causing you to struggle.

Most players who do poorly on noble are terrible with some basics: tech choice, building (against unit) choice, which tiles to improve first, and improving tiles rapidly enough. Anybody who gets those things down won't be stuck at noble for long. Why then, so many failures?

A lot of players don't make a concerted effort to improve or change on a game to game basis. One of my favorite examples is when I was tutoring not one but SEVERAL players who made and to my knowledge still often make the same mistake: delaying the granary in new cities they intend to grow!

It's amazing. I must have told these players several times, and had other even better players vouch for my advice: for cities that are going to grow even somewhat, the granary is the #1 economic building in the game (only a border pop takes precedence, if you need one). 3 games later, these players are still building the likes of a library or courthouse ahead of the granary in green riverside cities. Or maybe they'll not build a monument even though the best tiles need a pop...etc. Whatever, the granary example is glaring enough.

I suspect that players who fail noble more than a few times are failing for just the reason the "delay granary against all advice" players fail at their respective levels. They're not able (or more likely simply not willing) to adapt to advice that is merited by proven results and coming from players at a level they aspire to defeat. Instead, they repeat their same weak actions and replicate the results.

How many sample games are on this forum? Are we up to thousands now? I don't know. I suspect we are. In the NC alone though, if we average 5 summaries/map you have over 150 writeups to look at how a player made his empire, what techs he chose generally, how he played diplo, how he played war, etc. Anybody with a sense of pattern recognition should be able to find actions that tend to win in FAR FEWER games than 150! Even if it isn't explicitly stated, tech path can often be inferred via screenshots and what's given in the summaries. Things that are not clear can be specifically asked ---> and specific questions lend themselves to answers more readily than broad "why am I not doing well" crap.

So what do you have in mind? That depends on what you're trying to improve in your gameplay. But for most noble players ----> don't under or (more likely) over-invest in infrastructure, choose the proper tech path to develop your empire quickly, try not to get killed militarily (it's still possible to keep up with the AI in absolute terms here, and easily) and maybe start paying attention to how the diplo mechanics work a little bit. Anybody who can generally do those things will blow noble out.

[Shafi]

Originally Posted by Ignorant Teacher

I guess this is the right place to ask. What do you think the new noble players should have in mind when starting to play on Noble? Many people see this level as their limit, what could help them? What made you master Noble?

When you are at noble the idea of playing against an AI that is being given handicaps does not seem appealing, i remember thinking why would i want to play on any level higher than noble, but then i just improved enough to find that i did not really enjoy playing at noble anymore so i moved up to Prince and now Monarch and i actually find it much more interesting and aspects like city maintenance costs etc. really begin to surface.
I just recently moved on from Noble, i think the single most important factor in allowing me to move on was understanding and being able to decide which tech i needed to research next and having a stratergy with regard to my tech path. Making sure each tech i researched was for a purpose etc.
There were other things like chopping / whipping / rushing etc. that helped but what finally allowed me to become a better player was making smarter tech choices.

[dalamb]

My inner nerd felt compelled to make a spreadsheet computing the long-term average time between NC threads, which turns out to be 17 days (median 16.5). So I'm hoping to put together another one by the end of next week -- maybe sooner.

It won't be too hard for me to create a Monarch+ save by adding Archery to the Noble WB save now that I seem to know what to do to get the basic scenario file built; I'll likely try that at least once to see if I get it right. How much demand is there for a 3rd for even higher level players? I'd have to go hunting for the description of what to do; I've seen it before, but don't have a link handy.

What else would make the maps fun to play? What kind of edits seem appropriate? Do you prefer to stick with the map as generated? Or have a fiendish mapmaker edit in potential city sites with a 1-ocean separation from an otherwise isolated continent (I'm looking at you, r_rolo1 ). I notice some xOTMs have "interesting" situations, but perhaps those aren't so appropriate for something that's still supposed to be educational for lower-difficulty players?

[Groogaroo]

Originally Posted by dalamb

It won't be too hard for me to create a Monarch+ save by adding Archery to the Noble WB save now that I seem to know what to do to get the basic scenario file built; I'll likely try that at least once to see if I get it right. How much demand is there for a 3rd for even higher level players? I'd have to go hunting for the description of what to do; I've seen it before, but don't have a link handy.

A monarch save would certainly be nice

Originally Posted by dalamb

What else would make the maps fun to play? What kind of edits seem appropriate? Do you prefer to stick with the map as generated?

I'm fairly easy going as far as map types and little edited suprises are concerned. Keeping with the spirit of the club I guess any minor changes you make should be added for some educational purpose I guess and still keep a good balance between being a decent challenge but not frustrating and demoralising for lower level players.

Possibly the re-introduction of a map tips spoiler maybe a nice idea

I'm not too creative with maps myself so can't offer you mauch advice there. I tend to pick really run of the mill map scripts in my ofline games (Pangea, fractal and continents) and always use standard settings... I tend to rely on clubs like these running interesting maps.

Looking forward to the next game

[Amao]

Originally Posted by dalamb

My inner nerd felt compelled to make a spreadsheet computing the long-term average time between NC threads, which turns out to be 17 days (median 16.5). So I'm hoping to put together another one by the end of next week -- maybe sooner.

It won't be too hard for me to create a Monarch+ save by adding Archery to the Noble WB save now that I seem to know what to do to get the basic scenario file built; I'll likely try that at least once to see if I get it right. How much demand is there for a 3rd for even higher level players? I'd have to go hunting for the description of what to do; I've seen it before, but don't have a link handy.

What else would make the maps fun to play? What kind of edits seem appropriate? Do you prefer to stick with the map as generated? Or have a fiendish mapmaker edit in potential city sites with a 1-ocean separation from an otherwise isolated continent (I'm looking at you, r_rolo1 ). I notice some xOTMs have "interesting" situations, but perhaps those aren't so appropriate for something that's still supposed to be educational for lower-difficulty players?

I'd like NC series to keep on the newbie friendly side. There are still players thinking noble is hard to beat.

[dalamb]

Hmm. One way to interpret your comment is that "interesting" shouldn't mean "tricksy" but might mean "a fun surprise".