32 str Ira?

[Niveras]

So I'm playing FF trying to get through a Bannor Domination game that is chugging, as the late game tends to do, slowly expanding onto what's left of a continent after some horsemen got through with it.

Anyway, sending out starter city kits I came across the below: a 28+4 str Ira. Now, I don't what mechanics the Iras have, but this seems a little excessive to me. Even if demons operated like wild animals, gaining strength as time goes on, this Ira has an age of only 10. Do Ira have some sort of merge or strength gaining mechanic, similar to a flesh golem, or is this just a bug?

(The Ira in question is one tile right of center, I moused over it though the cursor doesn't appear in the screenshot.)

This is a patch L game so my apologies if this issue had been fixed in M or N without being noted in the changelog.

[MagisterCultuum]

I believe that Ira both in FfH and FF start with a strength of 8 + 4 unholy and gain 1 strength whenever they defeat any living unit, up to a limit of 32 (I'm not sue if that is only for their base strength or includes the unholy strength too).


I'm not a fan of arbitrary limits, so if I'd coded it I'd probably give it, say, a (100- strength)/2 % chance of gaining strength each time it defeats a living unit instead of giving out strength for every unit and cutting it off at 32.

[xienwolf]

Whoa, first screenshot I have clicked on since the forums updated. Interesting new format...

Anyway, turn 400 and researching future tech doesn't sound like you are running on epic or marathon, so apparently someone tried to take that Ira down with a Stack of Death, or it would be impossible for him to have won enough combats to max out.

And yes, Ira's are painful if they aren't killed immediately.

[Niveras]

Despite the Ira only being 10 years old and in a completely unpopulated part of the world? The area I am currently settling used to be Calabim, but they had the unfortunate luck of having every horseman spawn there, eventually razing all their cities (probably 50 turns past). I supposed it is possible that an AI stack of doom somehow got there, but the Ira would surely not have already had the strength to survive it.

Now that I think of it I suspect the culprit may have be a couple stacks of savages. But that area has also been hell terrain for probably 100 turns, so that doesn't seem all that likely either. I'm just wondering what could have bumped its strength up so quickly at such a young age.

It does seem less likely to be a bug, thanks for the clarification.

[WarKirby]

I think strength 32 is horribly excessive for a normal demon, though.

That's stronger than Meshabber of Dis, and he can only be built in the AV holycity at AC 60, for a fairly high cost.

Str32 ira is also stronger than all dragons. Aren't they supposed to be about the most powerful things in creation?

I did tcomment on this feature when it was first mentioned, too. But it doesn't seem right that a pithy little demon like that can be more powerful than all but one of the "bosses" in the whole game. Only Auric Ascended has more raw strength than 32, unless I'm mistaken.

I'd say cap their strength at 18-20

[MagisterCultuum]

I agree that Ira can be and often are too strong, but I just don't like the idea of hard caps.


The Dragons really need to be made stronger, especially Eurabatres. We don't know how strong the lesser dragons are compared to him, but The Golden One was the strongest being ever made (except by The One), stronger even than any archangel. The Avatar should probably be made stronger too, but only Auric Ascended should ever hope to exceed Eurabatres.


I think it might be good for the Ira unit to show/represent a large group of demons rather than one super strong demon. In that case, the added strength could represent that their actions enrage their victims enough that their enraged souls join the army of Ira.

[Valkrionn]

Would be interesting if you could add more units to the formation as it gains in strength... Actually, could be done by adding promotions changing the artstyle. Would be cool to have a unit of 15 little demons........

[WarKirby]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

I agree that Ira can be and often are too strong, but I just don't like the idea of hard caps.

If not hard caps, how do you feel the strength should be managed?

The Dragons really need to be made stronger, especially Eurabatres. We don't know how strong the lesser dragons are compared to him, but The Golden One was the strongest being ever made (except by The One), stronger even than any archangel. The Avatar should probably be made stronger too, but only Auric Ascended should ever hope to exceed Eurabatres.

I agree. For reference, current strength values:

Auric Ascended: 60
Avatar of Wrath: 33
Abashi: 21
Acheron: 19
Eurabatres 23
Drifa 21

Also
Gurid: 22 +1 banana affinity
Margalard: 22
The War Machine: 19
Mother: 11
Mythril Golem: 25
Meshabber of Dis: 31
Coatlann the Wyvern: 18

Horsemen:
Stephanos 24
Buboes 30
Yersinia 30
Ars Moriendi 32 +1 death affinity

All values are combined, including special damage types and equipment bonuses. Ie, auric's 30 ice strength is included in his 60 above.

The dragons have actually been severely weakened in FF, which is lamentable. What do you feel that their strength values should be, comparing with the above?

How much stronger than Eurabatres, should auric be? only slightly? or vastly so.

I think it might be good for the Ira unit to show/represent a large group of demons rather than one super strong demon. In that case, the added strength could represent that their actions enrage their victims enough that their enraged souls join the army of Ira.

This is a good idea, but even still, I don't think they should be achieving values as high as 32 str.

The above puts this in perspective.A maxed out Ira is stronger than everything except Ars Moriendi, the Avatar of Wrath, and Auric ascended. That's just silly. At the very least, they should never be stronger than ANY of the horsemen. It just makes a mockery of the apocalypse.

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by WarKirby

If not hard caps, how do you feel the strength should be managed?

I agree. For reference, current strength values:

Auric Ascended: 60
Avatar of Wrath: 33
Abashi: 21
Acheron: 19
Eurabatres 23
Drifa 21

Also
Gurid: 22 +1 banana affinity
Margalard: 22
The War Machine: 19
Mother: 11
Mythril Golem: 25
Meshabber of Dis: 31
Coatlann the Wyvern: 18

Horsemen:
Stephanos 24
Buboes 30
Yersinia 30
Ars Moriendi 32 +1 death affinity

All values are combined, including special damage types and equipment bonuses. Ie, auric's 30 ice strength is included in his 60 above.

The dragons have actually been severely weakened in FF, which is lamentable. What do you feel that their strength values should be, comparing with the above?

How much stronger than Eurabatres, should auric be? only slightly? or vastly so.




This is a good idea, but even still, I don't think they should be achieving values as high as 32 str.

The above puts this in perspective.A maxed out Ira is stronger than everything except Ars Moriendi, the Avatar of Wrath, and Auric ascended. That's just silly. At the very least, they should never be stronger than ANY of the horsemen. It just makes a mockery of the apocalypse.

I say up Eurabatres to 45 at least, and work down from there. I'm almost willing to argue that it should be even higher, as since Auric is not ACTUALLY Mulcarn, there may not be much of a strength advantage there, especially seeing as Eurabatres is supposedly even stronger than Cernunnos, as both are creations of a god and Eurabatres is said to be the most powerful creation ever made.

I'd keep in mind though that the Ira might be a group of demons, rather than a single Demon... a large enough group can take out even the most powerful being in creation.

[WarKirby]

Originally Posted by Valkrionn

I'd keep in mind though that the Ira might be a group of demons, rather than a single Demon... a large enough group can take out even the most powerful being in creation.

Then it would be better to represent this by spawning more Ira instead.

I'd say, cap the ira strength at 18. And whenever a str 18 ira gets a kill, it would cause a new str 8 one to appear, instead of empowering itself.

[Valkrionn]

I wouldn't mind that at all, although I'd like to keep the four that spawn with the Avatar of Wrath at a higher cap... Makes him scarier.

[WarKirby]

Originally Posted by Valkrionn

I wouldn't mind that at all, although I'd like to keep the four that spawn with the Avatar of Wrath at a higher cap... Makes him scarier.

I'd rather see the avatar made scarier personally, than being outshined by his minions.

[Milaga]

Originally Posted by WarKirby

I'd rather see the avatar made scarier personally, than being outshined by his minions.

I always thought it would be cool that every time he won a battle he would inflict up to 25% death damage on all units in surrounding tiles. Sort of like a beefed up reverse pyre zombie.

But I have a feeling the AI would just have massive stacks disintegrate were that the case.

[MagisterCultuum]

What would you think if he automatically gave any living unit that approached him Enraged, without even needing to cast a spell (you could make this a prereq instead of an effect of an uncastable spell)? He wouldn't need to be all that powerful to be almost unstoppable.

[Sarisin]

In my last game only the Sheaim and I (Balseraphs) remained. The Sheaim were on the other side of the Large map and the Avatar was not far away from my borders.

Every few turns the Avatar would spawn one or more Iras. Out of the box they were 22 strength with 4 Unholy damage PLUS they had six promotions including Combat V.

It was late in the game, but I had nothing that could come close to them. AC 100 had taken away most of my strong units. I had the Baron, but his killing Demons produced nothing. I just had to keep building Rangers and it would take at least 4 to kill one Ira. I think I ended up killing 50 or so Iras before the game was won.

I did try going out after the Avatar, but kept getting beaten back by more Iras.

Yes, I think they are too strong, especially with the promotions.

[zup]

Regular units perhaps, enraging presence could make him scary. I can already imagine my garrisoned crossbowmen abandoning the city and leaving my city unprotected. Especially when he comes with a bunch of other demons, your units are likely to go after weaker prey. Though he is...in a way more than powerful enough already (as in almost impossible to take out without sacrificing cannon fodder).

But bringing up Eurabatres again, I don't think he'd be too impressed with the Avatar. Perhaps units of sufficient modified strength and/or level should have a chance to resist the enraging? Maybe once certain treshold is reached, they are immune. But I definitely cannot see a dragon falling to such a trap.

[WarKirby]

So how about making him have a chance per turn of enraging nearby living units, instead of a guarantee.


The chance would be dependant n some combination of level and base strength. Anything with more than say... 20 strength would be immune. As would any unit over level 8. Anything below would have various % chances to be affected per turn.

[Arctic Circle]

Looking at the pre-req's for The Golden Dragon, it really deserves a strength around at least 30-35.

[PPQ_Purple]

I have a question. Why do you have a problem with giving the Ira an indefinite strenth level and letting it beat all the boses at once?

Instead of removing it, or hard caping the strenth, why not change the way this strenth is gathered. Esentialy, I propose that the leveling proces speads down as you go up.
0 - 10 strenth => +1 per 1 kill
11 - 20 strenth => +1 per 2 kills
21 - 30 strenth => +1 per 3 kills

Essentialy, the formula is:

int Strent increment = 1;
Number of kills for strenth increase = int k;
Number of + strenth already owned = int n;

k = ((n - 1) / 10) + 1

Esentialy, for a increase from +43 to +44 you would need ((43 - 1) / 10) + 1 kills.
Becouse of the use of integers, that rounds down to (4 + 1) = 5 kills neded to go up.

So, in my proposal for a +9 bonus, you would need 9 kills, for a +15 bonus you would need 10 + 2*5 = 20 kills. For a +70 bonus you would need a 10 + 2*10 + 3*10 + 4*10 + 5*10 + 6*10 + 7*10 + 8*10 = 360 kills. But at the point the unit get's these kills, it would be unstopable even to auric and the AOW working together with the horseman.

Idea needs heavy tweaking probably.

[WarKirby]

Originally Posted by PPQ_Purple

I have a question. Why do you have a problem with giving the Ira an indefinite strenth level and letting it beat all the boses at once?.

BEcause it defeats the purpose of having massive dragons and demons, if these pithy little lesser demons have such uncharacteristic strength.

Why SHOULD they be allowed to grow so powerful, is the question you should ask.

This is a creature which can be summoned endlessly, and their strength can be higher than everything except two of the most powerful beings in existence. Why don't you see a problem with that?