[BTS] Renaissance Start: Lincoln

[dalamb]

I've decided to play a series of games starting in the Renaissance, to check out how civilizations with late-game UUs and UBs work out when one starts closer to their own era. I'm quite unfamiliar with playing this late, and am going ahead after getting just a little advice. Current plans are:

• Pick opponents from those with late-game UU and UB; despite starting with extra knowledge of who we're up against, it seems fairer to avoid civs with obsolete UUs and UBs.
• Play at Noble, the level I'm still mastering. If anybody wants to shadow at a higher level, they can do a WB save and run it as a scenario.
• Work through all the late-game civs in turn, then repeat with whatever alternate leaders a civ might have. I plan to start with Lincoln, for example, and would try Roosevelt and Washington much later.
• Wait for advice between major segments, like some of the other folks who run series. I expect to play for a few hours one day, then switch to one of my other ongoing games (lke the current xOTM) while waiting for responses (if any!)

First up is Lincoln of America: PHI and CHM, meaning faster GP generation and faster promotions in combat. I'm playing at Noble, on a Small map (so the game goes a bit faster) and Epic (even though it slows things down, it's the rate I'm most comfortable with). I might go to Standard and Normal for later games, though. This one is on Continents with Low sea level -- have to have some overseas invasions with those amphibious SEALs.

Spoiler for his UU and UB:

The Mall, a supermarket that gives +20% commerce and +1 happy from Hit Singles, Musicals, and Movies:


The SEAL: a Marine that also gets March and 1-2 First Strikes:

And here's the starting position:

I really, really want that gold in my capital's BFC! In place (the blue city) is good, but overlaps too much with the best place to get the fish (and a coast, for our eventual overseas invasions). I've been told to explore with "all" my units as rapidly as possible; I presume that means both longbowmen and the explorer, but what about the worker and one of the two settlers (both sharing a starting tile)? How soon do barbarians show up to cause trouble? Obvious first move is western longbowman 1W to the gold hill, and maybe the explorer 1NW and see where he goes from there. Settler and worker somewhere to the south?

As to initial strategy: build a library and mine the gold, for faster research. It seems to me that gunpowder is a high priority since that gives me much better defensive units (9 strength vs 6); it's available to research right away. On the other hand, Education and Liberalism are also high priorities. If I win the Liberalism race, Astronomy is the most expensive tech immediately available, and it's on the way to Scientific Method and everything else that leads up to the Mall. OTOH Nationalism is on the shortest path to SEALs.

Lots of civics are available right away. Religion isn't a factor because all the religious techs are known so nobody "founded" them, so we stay at Paganism. Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, and Mercantilism seem like the best choices, though Caste System looks good as soon as cities are big enough to be able to run the right specialists.

Initial save available for anyone who wants to shadow -- but please spoiler any comments about your shadow game so I don't trip over them! I happen to know the opponents, but have spoilered them in case shadow gamers want to be surprised.

Spoiler for the opposition:

Bismark, Catherine, Napoleon, Willem

Edit: here's a list of the individual rounds:
Round 1: AD 1285 - 1390
Round 2, AD 1390 - 1685: Cathy must die!
Round 3: AD 1685 - 1796: Willem also dies

[Hereditary Rule]

Never tried a game like this before. Will be following the thread!

You should still be able to use Free religion for the +10% research bonus even with no religions.

[Amask]

religions get randomly distributed after a few turns
I don't know if there's any mechanism that makes it fair, since I only played non-ancient start in a 1v1 game

[euripides]

swap civics first, so you can settle cap at t2 or t3. I would take some place near the gold, but a bit away from your red dot, so not in place. maybe first setller move 1 nw. but yes, scout first with your military. and first build should be another worker. you will need many, because you start at pop3 in every city.

[Killroyan]

Definitely 1NW with your settler. Still on a river, floodplain, gold and possible wheat and it opens up the fish-horse city. Interesting to see how this will work out.

[dalamb]

Well, lots more I didn't know; thanks, folks! Specifically

• We start at Pop 3, so worker-first is still a very good strategy.
• Should have realized it, but the 2-3 turns of anarchy after changing civics means no "real" penalty from not founding a city, so settlers can explore -- if there are no Bad Guys out there to eat them for a few turns (if a nasty eats my settler on turn 3 I'll feel justified in reloading, though).
• We get religions after all. Not sure what to think about that. Hope it's not so soon that lack of a city for a couple of turns hurts my chances much!

It's 6:50 AM here; I hope to start around 10-11am after I finish some morning errands.

[dalamb]

I had a nice chatty message typed up but lost it in a Firefox crash -- don't do ANYTHING ELSE when photobucket is uploading your files! I hope I recall everything I meant to say; I figured since this is a new kind of game I'd go into excruciating detail about the initial choices. I may screw up on present vs past tense, but hope to stick with present.

My first choice is civics, since how many turns of revolution I have will govern how far settlers could explore before somebody had to be back at the starting site -- presuming that is a reasonable place to go!

Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, and Mercantism all seem obvious -- the latter just for the free specialist, even though the extra trade route won't be useful until I have a 3rd city or meet somebody. Pacifism seems the best religious tech: with a PHI leader and +100% GPP, we should be 'way ahead of the AIs on Great People if we ever get one of those randomly-assigned religions Amask mentioned. Labor was the harder choice. Caste System requires a larger population. Slavery is always nice early on, but getting improvements built 50% faster also seems pretty useful. By the time I get feudalism, worker improvement speed seems a lot less valuable than either of the other two most of the time; Serfdom seems better right now. That means 3 turns of anarchy (this one and the next two).

Somebody is going to need the horses eventually -- either of the two cities from my first dotmap, for example -- so I move the worker to build a road on the horses. The obvious two first moves are longbowman 1W to the gold, explorer NW NE via the two hills -- and the explorer finds fish, meaning my original coastal city isn't so important, and the initial starting location is more attractive. Thus one settler has to be back soon; there's lots of open territory to the SW so I send one that way. The other can be back in time by moving 1NW, 2 moves on turn 1, 2 back on turn 2, move and build on turn 3. So t0 ends with:


On turn 1 move the explorer 2NW and find sheep; the south longbow reaches the hill and finds copper. I figure the north settler should go NW N to the hill, but when I move NW I see iron. Iron is more important than copper -- until I want to build some of the cathedrals or wonders -- so now it looks like the north settler should stay north and the south one get back in time to found Washington. So the south settler can only go 1SW instead of 2SW. Here's what I see at the end of the turn:


Turn 3: I settle Washington and the worker starts farming the wheat. I see it's size 2 and has granary, aqueduct, and forge. I'll wait on building a 2nd worker until the farm is finished so build a library for now. The only free specialist (via mercantilsm) I can run is an engineer; I expect to switch to a scientist when I finish the library.


And now for the first new Renaissance Start shock: the initial techs are SOOO expensive! 142 for education, 126 for the subsequent liberalism, 95 for gunpowder. I really want that gold hill and library soon!

I try to win the liberalism race; might be possible with the gold. I dotmap possible city locations. Red is the obvious iron city: not a lot of food, but pigs and a river location are good, especially since the river connects it to the capital. The settler, on the pigs, can't build this turn, so might as well go 1W 1SE to see a bit more territory. Cyan or Magenta make good 3rd cities, with wheat, sheep, and seafood; I'll need to swing the explorer over east to see which is best.


T4, 1305 AD: I found New York, spot a Dutch explorer, and open borders immediately for the eventual diplomacy benefit.

Since he's approaching from the west, that means I have to think about exploring west to see if I should claim more territory, or east to figure a seacoast city placement. I wonder if there are any goody huts in such a late start? It would be a shame to miss one in "my" territory if he went east, but so far I've seen none. I decide that finding his homeland is more important, since I expect to send a settler and its protector to the seacoast eventually, and it can discover the best site itself. NY needs a border pop ASAP to get to the good tiles (pigs and iron) so I work 1F2H forests to get a monument in as few turns as possible. It'll go obsolete soon because of Astronomy, but seems valuable enough right now. Best I can do for a library is 18t, and that's too long.

Then on Turn 6, in New York:

I switch religions immediately -- and then, in Washington:

And all the others are founded in distant lands. Is this timed consistently on turn 6, then? Glad I settled a 2nd city in time! So, two religions -- more than my share, given 5 civs and 7 religions. Taoism doesn't get its first-to-found missionary. Monasteries in science cities are good, though, so I should be able to spread them around eventually.

And here's out next neighbour.

Great; everybody's favourit backstabber/ With Continents and 4 AI I expect she's the last on the starting continent, with two on a 2nd -- but I don't know enough about the map script to be sure.

She's off to the west also. The longbows will be needed back home by the time the cities grow to the point of demanding protection, and it looks like we may be near the south boundary of the continent, so they'll explore a little more before heading home. Also, I notice that the wheat finished, so Washington switches from library to worker. I could have worked the wheat last turn, becauase the workers are free to build a road this turn.

On turn 10 New York finishes its monument and, duh, I notice that the border has already popped. Oh, yeah, there's that religion thing. Well, I couldn't have predicted that NY would get a religion, and now NY will expand a teeny bit faster, so the time on the monument wasn't completely wasted. I switch to library -- Washington can build workers faster. And, oh, yeah: NY will finish its first GE in 11 more turns; isn't Pacifism great! Washington makes another in 17 turns, which of course will go up after New York's is born. I think a Monastery in New York migh be a good idea, so Washington's next Great Person shows up even faster!

Some minor highlights:

• 1350 AD: The worker finishes its roadways and starts on the horses; Washington will finish one for New York next turn.
• Turn 18, 1375 AD: both cities grow to size 3, and start demanding military protection. Both longbowmen are on their way home.
• Turn 21, 1390 AD: Our first Great Engineer is born in New York, with our second due in Washington in at most 28 turns (less once we spread Buddhism there).
  

So now it's time to decide what to do with him. Bulbing gunpowder doesn't seem worth it; it's the cheapest available tech to research. So it's time to consider rushing wonders:

• University of Sankore, +8 , +2 GS, +2 from all Buddhist buildings. Presumably this would go in Washington, which is the most likely science city. I've only ever built it once, I think, and that was a game where I was far ahead and wonderspamming for fun. It might be critical in this game, especially if I hope to win the Liberalism race.
• Notre Dame and Sistine Chapel produce Great Artist points, which I'm not sure I want. +2 happiness in all cities on this continent doesn't seem particularly important when I'm running Hereditary Rule, and increased culture doesn't seem important when I'm aiming at warmongering later in the game instead of going for a cultural win.
• Spiral Minaret, Schwedegon Paya, and Angor Wat produce Great Prophet points, which I'm not sure I want, either, especially since their benefits don't look all that great.

I'm off to run more errands in a few minutes, so this looks like a good place to pause and ask for advice.

[futurehermit]

Your starting location screwed over two nice fishing villages. You should've settled 1NW imo.

[dalamb]

Where would you have put the two of them?

It may yet turn out that my Magenta city is a good fishing location.

[shyuhe]

Renaissance starts are kind of broken. Just beeline MT and kill all the AI.

[dalamb]

Unfun. If indeed the smartest thing to do is beeline Military Tradition and kill everyone with cavalry (which I'm not expert enough to know), consider my constraints (using the UU and UB) as a "role-playing restriction" like some other people like madscientist make.

[futurehermit]

2SE and 2NE of your current capital are the ONLY locations you can put cities and still work the corresponding fish tiles. However, due to your capital location you cannot place those cities and, therefore, cannot work those fish tiles, which are quite strong tiles that could both feed fishing villages.

[dalamb]

So it looks like the following represents your suggestion -- capital 1NW, and the two fishing villages.

That definitely squeezes in two more cities than what I have, which could be important, but

• The northern of the two (light blue) overlaps a lot with the moved capital.
• The capital itself looks weaker to me -- fewer good tiles -- and when I was deciding not to go for the while fish city (which was on my initial dotmap) it was in part for that reason.

I'm not sure which works out better -- and I'm going to stick with what I've done so far, since I have a long history of second-guessing myself and restarting and not finishing.

[futurehermit]

Definitely stick with what you done, but I think the stronger position was to move 1NW. Fishing villages are precisely that: they work seafood and coastal tiles mostly and hopefully a production tile or two. So, the overlap with the capital is not a problem for me. These cities can also run a pair of early scientists for you, get international trade routes later, can whip units, etc. etc. The two extra cities could also help if you got boxed in (which doesn't look likely in this particular game).

On the plus side, you have the horses in your capital BFC which is a really nice tile.

[dalamb]

Oops, look like we're going to need early warfare; there is already a barbarian city where my Magenta city was to be located -- another big difference on Renaissance, apparently. Well, maybe that will encourage me to go after Cathy with the promoted trebs and macemen from killing barbs. I'll have to turn New York into a military city ASAP and perhaps Washington not long thereafter. At least I'll have a while before the AI get gunpowder, so maybe maces won't be obsolete - and with both Vassalage and Theocracy available, I can start with 7 XP, which with Charismatic may mean they're 1XP from level 3.

Cathy has horses in the Moscow BFC. She needs quite a while to get both Military Tradition and Rifling for her Cossacks, so I have a little while to go after her with Medieval-era military. She might have muskets by the time I attack, but they're not a whole lot tougher than macemen. I figure Willem is a later-game threat for both economic (Fin) and production (Dike) reasons, so maybe he should be 2nd target after Cathy.

[futurehermit]

other than red and magenta you've got some pretty poor surrounding land. to me, that always means military sooner than later.

[Grey2ham]

Surely winning lib race on this start is easiest with 3 scientist/Library/Mercantalism combo. Should get 2 scientists for bulbing?

[dalamb]

I do currently believe I'll need to go to war soon. I need a library in Moscow ASAP so I can switch the free engineer to a free scientist, which together with the University of Sankore give me a chance for a GS as its first GPP and certainty for its second. After that it can build a barracks and start cranking out units; the New York iron will be connected by then. Similarly NY will go barracks in a few turns after it builds a monastery and missionary so both cities run the same religion.

Should that first GS go to an academy, as usual, or save for bulbing? I may be most of the way through Education by the time a GS shows up -- though if it's not fully researched, excess bulbs would go to Liberalsm, wouldn't they? In which case maybe the right order for spending GS is Edu > academy > bulb something else.

I do expect to win the Liberalism race, with that gold and with running science specialists.

[futurehermit]

With horse and iron right away, you could consider attacking early with knights maybe.

[dalamb]

Hmm. Knights might be good; by the time I get them in most games, there are too many pikemen around, so I'm not used to thinking of them as city attackers. But I could stake out Cathy's iron fairly quickly, so it wouldn't be hard to limit their future (or maybe even initial!) production.

Edit: calculations:
CHA means the first few level breakpoints are 2, 4, and 8. Out of the gate, with barracks, stable, and vassalage, knights would have 7 XP, level 2, and 1 away from level 3; if I were willing to give up Pacifism for Theocracy, they'd start with 9XP at level 3. They don't get City Raider so I imagine the best promotion chain might be Combat III, total +30% vs all units, thus 10*1.3 = 13 strength. With the same civics macemen would start with 3+4=7 and be CR II with one point to go, so +45% on city attack, so 8*1.45 = 11.6 vs likely longbow defenders (8*1.95 vs melee defenders, if any). So knights are definitely better, but one attack gives macemen CR III, 8*1.75=14 vs longbow defenders. So to take the barbs I want macemen for sure. Then there's the cost; 94 for macemen, 121 for knights.

As usual I suspect all of this means I want a mix of units in my SoD. Mostly macemen and trebuchets, with some knights for protection from attack by non-spears?