Saturn Embassy

[General_W]

Saturn Embassy:

Team Saturn

Darius of Persia
Play Order: #2 (right before us)


This thread is for all discussion related to Diplomacy with Team Saturn.


Here's a snapshot of our info on them from the turn we met.
Turn ?? <not yet contacted>

Spoiler:

Team Saturn

• Civ: Darius of Persia
• Traits: Oranized, Financial
• Unique Unit: Immortal (4 strength, 2 Move, +50% vs Archery units, +100% vs Axemen, + 30% withdrawal chance. Replaces chariot which is only has Axeman bonus and 10% withdrawal)
• Unique Building: Apothecary (+2 Health in addition to Grocery benefits… +25% gold, +1 Health from Banana, Spices, Sugar, Wine)
• Contact: – not yet met -

Current Trades: None
Resources Available for Trade: No Route Established

Technology to Trade: Code of Laws
Missing Technology: Metal Casting

Gold to Trade: – unknown -

Known towns:

Capital <unknown name> [Size ?]
City #2 <unknown name> [Size ?]
City #3 <unknown name> [Size ?]
City #4 <unknown name> [Size ?]

Saturn Foreign Dealings:

• With Team Kazakhstan: Saturn traded them Archery for 24 points of tech
• With Team Cavaleiros: - unknown -
• With Team Mad Scientists: - unknown - (probably contact, due to Work Boat)

Treaties and Agreements with SANCTA:
– none yet -

This post will NOT be updated. Please click HERE to visit the SANCTA NEXUS for updated info.






.

[General_W]

ok - just trying to get this ready (finally) - I know I need to update the above post some - and we'll need to get this sticked - but I thought I'd better at least get started!

Rough draft of a potential initial contact letter coming up next.


EDIT: Updated, thanks to Krill.

[Krill]

Thanks General_W.

Quick note. I think we might want two drafts (neither appreciably different from t'other), one in case Saturn has Alphabet, and one incase they don't.

Also, a rant I've been wanting to post for more than 5 months now:

Why didn't Saturn pick a team name that we can abbreviate or shorten :angry:

[General_W]

Ok – here’s my rough-draft proposal to send when we meet Saturn.

This is only a starting point – let’s edit this sucker till it’s perfect!

Namaste, Lord Parkin.
The Ninjas salute the Great Empire of Saturn.

At long-last, our peoples finally meet! We’ve been eagerly looking forward to this great day.
First of all, let us assure you that you have nothing to fear from our friendly chariot ambassador. His mission is strictly one of diplomacy.

In fact – if you’ll forgive us for pushing past diplomatic niceties so quickly – we’d like to get right down to serious business with your people. We’re just going to put all our cards on the table, and hope you’ll agree that we have the potential to do great things together.

The Situation:
Here’s where we stand: the Kazakhstani people have united most of the world into an alliance that specifically excludes us. They’ve been dealing most closely with the Cavaleiros – but also have roped the Mad Scientists in on the deal as well.

We’re therefore currently operating in a 3v1 environment, and would very much like to have an ally… as you can imagine!

Kaz is currently in a very dominant position, since the Mad Scientists and Cavaleiros seem willing to let Kaz take continued advantage of them for reasons we can’t fathom. But SANCTA has managed to do very well despite lacking an ally – and we’re in a position to be an extremely helpful ally – if you’ll take us up on an offer of friendship.

The Pitch:
Why should you join us on the short side of a 2v3 when you could join the strong side of a 4v1? We think there are a few compelling reasons.

• First of all – given the close nature of the Kaz-Cav cooperation – you’d certainly end up as the most (or second most) junior partner in the 4-way alliance. After we’ve been destroyed, you don’t need the Oracle to predict that you’ll be next.
• Second – The current 3 way alliance doesn’t need you as badly as we do. There’s no way that they will be as excited, generous, or cooperative as we’ll be. We’re willing to bend over backwards to make a deal with you that you’ll like.
• Finally – we’re very confident (backed up by extensive simulations we’ve been running) that together we could surpass the Kaz-Cav-MadS alliance and secure the top two spots for our nations.

The Proposal
If you’d be willing to agree to an alliance with us – we’ll gift you all our tech and work with you to draft a treaty that ensures you stay competitive & thrive… so that when we both triumph through to the final two spots, you’ve got just a good a shot at victory as we do.

We know that this is a lot all at once – but we’re hoping that just being honest and transparent about our situation will help to persuade you that you’re better off with us than against us.


What say you?
We eagerly await your reply.

General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA.

A long quiet wait…
A letter dispatched abroad,
Diplomacy starts.

EDIT: I liked Krill's proposed changes, but apparently this is the version that got SENT!

Thoughts?
Let’s get those red pens out and get started!

[Krill]

Namaste, Lord Parkin.
The Ninjas salute the Great Empire of Saturn.

Are we sure LP is the leader? Josh and to a lesser extent Plako play the save. We might be better off not mentioning anyone by name, or including Josh in the greeting.

At long-last, our peoples finally meet! We’ve been eagerly looking forward to this great day.
First of all, let us assure you that you have nothing to fear from our friendly chariot ambassador. His mission is strictly one of diplomacy.

With any luck we could also offer to kill the barbs in that area to show how we want to be helpful (not sure if you want to add that in, depends on what the barbs do).

We could offer to gift them the chariot as well...

In fact – if you’ll forgive us for pushing past diplomatic niceties so quickly – we’d like to get right down to serious business with your people. We’re just going to put all our cards on the table, and hope you’ll agree that we have the potential to do great things together.

Damned right we need to push past the niceties. Would it be wise to offer to chat if they wanted to (ie add in chat info? If they don;t have it already).

The Situation:
Here’s where we stand – the Kazakhstani people have united most of the world into an alliance that specifically excludes us. They’ve been dealing most closely with the Cavaleiros – but also have roped the Mad Scientists in on the deal as well.

We’re therefore, currently operating in a 3v1 environment, and would very much like to have an ally… ss you can imagine!

Kaz is currently in a very dominant position, since the Mad Scientists and Cavaleiros seem willing to let Kaz take continued advantage of them for reasons we can’t fathom. But SANCTA has managed to do very well despite lacking an ally – and we’re in a position to be an extremely helpful ally – if you’ll take us up on an offer of friendship.

Do we want to specifically state that we have not traded with them because they will trade all techs amongst themselves? And do we want to state how long this has been around? just a fyi, but they had the tech deal to oracle fued in place around t50. We could throw it out there to show them just how junior they would be as partners.

The Pitch:
Why should you join us on the short side of a 2v3 when you could join the strong side of a 4v1? We think there are a few compelling reasons.

• First of all – given the close nature of the Kaz-Cav cooperation – you’d certainly end up as the most (or second most) junior partner in the 4-way alliance. After we’ve been destroyed, you don’t need the Oracle to predict that you’ll be next.
• Second – The current 3 way alliance doesn’t need you as badly as we do. There’s no way that they will be as excited, generous, or cooperative as we’ll be. We’re willing to bend over backwards to make a deal with you that you’ll like.
• Finally – we’re very confident (backed up by extensive simulations we’ve been running) that together we could surpass the Kaz-Cav-MadS alliance and secure the top two spots for our nations.

1. Definately agree to this point being made. Might want to point out that we can protect there eastern flank; then again, if they point out that they can threaten our western flank I'm afraid i would just laugh at them.
2. Might want to point out just how backward they are, or that could wait for a chat/second letter. Minor point.
3. If you want to use some real numbers, you could say that we could have Maths and Alphabet to trade with them by t98 (ie 8 turns after meeting them) if they don't have alphabet or we don't trade for it off Cavs, or Maths+Currency by t99 (9 turns after) if we trade for, or they have, Alpha.

Or just state that if they want to discuss it in more detail we are more than willing. This also gives us a little time to assimilate the data about their position, but OTOH this is probably included in the following section.

The Proposal
If you’d be willing to agree to an alliance with us – we’ll gift you all our tech and work with you to draft a treaty that ensures you stay competitive & thrive… so that when we both triumph through to the final two spots, you’ve got just a good a shot at victory as we do.

Love this bit. Although the bolded bit makes us seem a little arrogant of our ability to stay ahead (OK...deserved, but they probably won't like it).

[Memphus]

Does anyone Disagree that we pause the game (can't believe i just said that) until we hear back from Saturn?

[Krill]

We don't necessarily have to...but it's most prudent and lets us keep our cards closer to our chest wrt Pyramids and GLH for a little longer, at the cost of slowing down the game.

If we researched Masonry first instead of not finishing it until the last turn possible, then we could go an entire turn without assigning overflow and thus talk during the others turns, only pausing if we have nothing sorted out until our next turn comes around.

Although tbh, pausing is the best strategic decision we could make, so I'm not against doing it.

[Krill]

Another few questions for G_W:

1. Do you feel it is wise to ask immediately for an alliance as opposed to one tech trade at a time?
   
   
2. Would it be helpful if we could also offer resource trades? (I'm thinking eles, and we could even offer our horses for 10-15 turns if we wanted...) we also have spare fish and wheat.
   
   
3. Will Saturn likely ask for a border treaty? (something I don't see as common in the CFC demogames, but are a major diplomatic hurdle in Apolyton demogames f.e.)
   
   
4. Would offering the galley to them to sail back to us, thus opening trade routes for them, be useful, and would the team support such a measure?
   
   
5. What do you think about (after a certain period of our own developement) offering settlers and workers to Saturn?

[Memphus]

Whomp Can we get a Sticky please?

Originally Posted by Krill

With any luck we could also offer to kill the barbs in that area to show how we want to be helpful (not sure if you want to add that in, depends on what the barbs do).

We could offer to gift them the chariot as well...

I think this should be incorporated into the message. I think we should rename the unit upon meeting saturn: Alliance Dowry. (or something along those lines)

Originally Posted by Krill

Do we want to specifically state that we have not traded with them because they will trade all techs amongst themselves? And do we want to state how long this has been around? just a fyi, but they had the tech deal to oracle fued in place around t50. We could throw it out there to show them just how junior they would be as partners.

First part no, they can assume we havn't traded since we don't have alpha.
Second part yes, and explain we caught wind of it and hence had to get the Oracle quickly so that Kaz didn't run away with the game, but our efforts seem short lived.
To further increase thier distaste for Kaz maybe we can play on the they got beat to CoL by less than a turn, Kaz if they were good friends would of told them their research.

Other than that I think we need to propose MC for CoL ASAP while they look at the alliance, or G_W would you rather get a if we got no first then propose the tech trade?

[AutomatedTeller]

We haven't actually met Saturn yet, have we? Just checking - I don't remember anything saying we have, but I miss stuff.

[Krill]

No, we haven't met Saturn yet, but we should meet them shortly...the barbs are pretty telling.

[azzaman333]

I don't like the idea of us pausing the game to wait for a response. Two wrongs not making a right or whatever it is.

I am ok with letting the turn timer run out though.

[IamJohn]

Pause if there is a legitamate need, but I do think preemptively pausing the timer as soon as we meet saturn would simply be childish, we have a sifnificent length of time anyway to decide to, and I trust Memphis/krill to pause when they see the need with out having to wait for us to get around to visiting the forum and posting.

[AutomatedTeller]

I am completely against pausing the game when we meet Saturn.

I like the idea of offering settlers at some point.
We maybe should offer to help keep their borders clear of barbs, too.

[Krill]

I'd say that if we don't find Saturn by our t91, we will need to pause on our turn to find out what we have to research (ie. Will Saturn agree to an alliance, do we need to tech alpha, should we trade for it off Cav, are we in a 4v1 etc).

That's simply because we'd have enough gold saved to see us research at 100% until we were ready to revolt to caste and rep, so and "extra" gold isn't worthwhile for research.

That's simply how it will effect our gameplay, so it is justified on that note.

One argument from diplomacy though, is that if we ask for a pause, we can say in our letter to Saturn that we want to try and get this sorted now, and this is just how important it is to us.

It's a weaker argument, but it would call for asking for a pause as soon as we found Saturn.

I think I'd have to vote for a pause if we found them after t91, simply because otherwise we'd basically have to sort out all of our diplomacy with Saturn before they play their t92, or they would have to pause it anyway...and they might not, forcing us to pause it on t92 anyway.


I wouldn't really call it preemptive pausing. We know that the turn we find Saturn we need to start researching again, but we don't know what to research. Premeditated might be better, but we always knew when we turned off research that we'd probably have to pause the game.

[dutchfire]

Just for your information, I've got Lord Parkin's contact info from the last demogame, so we can start chatting immediately when we meet them. (Shall I send you his adress, W?)

[Ronnie1]

For the record...I am against pausing the game upon meeting Saturn. This would only serve to point to our "immediate" desire to have some sort of deal, and I still don't think we should "look" that desperate!

I think the letter is good. I would make sure that Saturn does get our version of why we aren't trading with the others, because I'm sure they have the opposite viewpoint already.

[IamJohn]

Originally Posted by Ronnie1

For the record...I am against pausing the game upon meeting Saturn. This would only serve to point to our "immediate" desire to have some sort of deal, and I still don't think we should "look" that desperate!

I agree with Ronnie here, we shouldn't (and it'd be hypocritical imo) to pause unless we really Need to pause.

[Memphus]

Alright I get the felling for the team for everyone speaking up.

So next question. Is everyone of with me not playing the save in 1 hour? Meaning log in, do our work, send the letter, then wait till 22-23 hours on the clock prior to ending turn?

[Ronnie1]

I'm with you!