How to play Leaders with Protective trait

[The_Dwarf]

So recently I got the Warlords expansions for Civ4. I think a lot of the changes an additions make alot of sense and are really fun. However I cant make anything out of the protective trait. I feel totally crippled with that almost like playing with only one trait.
Am I missing something, is it any good or is it really by far the worst trait available ?

[Bast]

DON'T play as them.

Seriously, the only one worth playing is Charlemagne who surprisingly gets some sort of synergy because you can spam settlers and have fewer units defending and have Rathause everywhere to bring down the maintenance costs.

[Aardan]

Originally Posted by The_Dwarf

So recently I got the Warlords expansions for Civ4. I think a lot of the changes an additions make alot of sense and are really fun. However I cant make anything out of the protective trait. I feel totally crippled with that almost like playing with only one trait.
Am I missing something, is it any good or is it really by far the worst trait available ?

I do not play higher levels, but from what I hear you need the extra protection you need for the early attack from the barbarians. However, it the bonus is nice to have mid game and on as some of your gunpowder units will be able to better defend themselves as they are marching through enemy territory.

[Ghpstage]

You could always use the wall whip overflow trick to use PRO to make lots and lots of gold
Just build walls to near completion then whip a population into it to get overflow gold, to make it much more effective chop a few trees into the build on the last turn. Having stone makes this extremely powerful, but it is kind of exploity as in extreme cases you can out tech and outexpand anyone in the crucial early times

Mechanics are explained here


Other handy things:-
-The drill promotion line opens counter promotions like Pinch at D1 and Formation and Ambush at D2.
-Early on against barbs, shock and cover archers can be a great help defending your improvements.
-The drill line itself works well alongside siege collateral.
-Keeping captured cities is a lot easier thanks to CG.
-The mainstay of your army for the latter half of the game (muskets, rifles, infantry, mech infantry) all benefit from the free promos, and are all draftable .

It is probably the weakest trait if you ignore the wallhip overflow trick, but its definitely better than no trait at all.

[The_Dwarf]

- I consider these kinds of overflow tricks exploiting and dont use them at all.
- I disagree on protective being very useful against barbarians, since they go pillaging if facing strong defenders so I definatly prefer attacking units for that purpose.
- I disagree that captured cities are easier to defend also, if I have to choose if I want an additional attacker to make it easier to capture the city in the first place or a defending unit I will almost always go for additional attackers.
- That the path for other promotions is opened is nice however in the case of archers its kind of pointless. Or is there some hidden weird archer rush ? Im going to try that next time I get protective civ because im ruined anyway
- I Consider Muskets a rather weak unit so the benefit of them being upgraded for free doenst loke too inviting for me.

I guess Protective is really weak indeed and doesnt sweet my playstyle at all on top of that

[Volapyk]

Pro is in certain situations. For example if you find your neighbor to be some aggressive leader like Monty or Shaka, you are pretty much guaranteed they are going for an early war with you, and at the higher levels those free promotions to your archers can save your empire.

[zerocold]

When taking cities, look for a hill or a near river, this should kill most of the melee defenders

But yes protective is not so good

[DABegley]

Protective is best used for post-gunpowder expansion. Best combined with aggressive or charismatic. i.e. take Tokugawa, build up and tech until gunpowder then take your C1, D1, P1 musketmen with 1 more promo of your choice from barracks and start to roll. You can make some serious hay with him if you are in a reasonable position.

[mikesonic]

The protective trait, IMHO, is more a trait for AI rather than a trait for player. If your neighbor AI has this trait, it makes your early war (axe rush for example) very difficult.

[Ghpstage]

- I consider these kinds of overflow tricks exploiting and dont use them at all.

I don't blame you

- I disagree on protective being very useful against barbarians, since they go pillaging if facing strong defenders so I definatly prefer attacking units for that purpose.

Simply sitting in a city relying on CG is a bad move I agree, the real reason they are good against barbs are cover and shock.
Barbs attack units suicidally more often than they bypass them, so putting archers on hills and in forests on a barbs path is very effective. Having shock and cover with just barracks makes this vastly more effective.
Having cover also makes archers able to attack barb archers at an advantage.
This is something I learnt to appreciate a lot in raging barbs games with no copper on marathon
However, it does get weaker if you have copper, and the Dan-TMIT warrior fogbusting has made it a little weaker again.

- I disagree that captured cities are easier to defend also, if I have to choose if I want an additional attacker to make it easier to capture the city in the first place or a defending unit I will almost always go for additional attackers.

Once you have rifles most of your attacking units will probably be gunpowder types. Having free CG1 helps keep what you take, especially as otherwise your wounded gunpowder units are likely to need to fight off a counterattack with no defensive bonuses. (except hills, but those mean they took more damage in the attack!)

- That the path for other promotions is opened is nice however in the case of archers its kind of pointless. Or is there some hidden weird archer rush ? Im going to try that next time I get protective civ because im ruined anyway

It becomes quite noticeable once gunpowder units become your main force (rifles and later), its also the reason they're better against barbs. I wouldnt recommend an archer rush unless your Mali but longbows with catapults have dug me out of some bad positions with no metals

- I Consider Muskets a rather weak unit so the benefit of them being upgraded for free doenst loke too inviting for me.

PRO does affect later (and still draftable) units too. Muskets do seem weak though, I'm going to test soon if ignoring walls and casltes can be leveraged to any meaningful degree.


Thinking about it, castles are certainly worth considering for the economic benefits if they're half price.

I guess Protective is really weak indeed and doesnt sweet my playstyle at all on top of that

I personally would consider it a weak trait, buts its far better than not having one . It really shines if you have no metals, and is quite effective post gunpowder.

[nullspace]

Some nice things about PRO:

Free drill 1 promotion reduces collateral damage and puts you one promotion closer to drill 4, which is a very good promotion.

Drafted units get the free promotions. If you draft from a city with a barracks and theocracy, you can get a unit with drill 1, city garrison 1, and pick one more promotion, like pinch. That's not a bad unit.

Castles have some economic bonuses: one trade route and 25% bonus to espionage (in BtS).

You can "defeat" an enemy stack of doom by stranding it in your territory. When the enemy stack is marching towards a city of yours, have the city start building walls and castle (they're really cheap). Move some of your protective units there. The enemy will waste a lot of time bombarding your defenses, meanwhile you're conquering their cities and bringing in enough units to defend your threatened city.

[Aardan]

Originally Posted by The_Dwarf

So recently I got the Warlords expansions for Civ4. I think a lot of the changes an additions make alot of sense and are really fun. However I cant make anything out of the protective trait. I feel totally crippled with that almost like playing with only one trait.
Am I missing something, is it any good or is it really by far the worst trait available ?

Try protective with the great wall, also build your walls and castles and wait for the enemy to come. Since they will just throw stack of armies at you with no success, all you will be doing is getting GG after GG from the great wall affect. Try that with Charlemange (Pro and Imp) and your doubling your chances of GG. WOW

[mechaerik]

PRO works best post-gunpowder. With Churchill, you can get D4 gunpowder units with a barracks, GG, and Theo/Vassalage. Definately best for the AI, as anybody who has seen Toku's rifles.

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by The_Dwarf

- I consider these kinds of overflow tricks exploiting and dont use them at all.
- I disagree on protective being very useful against barbarians, since they go pillaging if facing strong defenders so I definatly prefer attacking units for that purpose.
- I disagree that captured cities are easier to defend also, if I have to choose if I want an additional attacker to make it easier to capture the city in the first place or a defending unit I will almost always go for additional attackers.
- That the path for other promotions is opened is nice however in the case of archers its kind of pointless. Or is there some hidden weird archer rush ? Im going to try that next time I get protective civ because im ruined anyway
- I Consider Muskets a rather weak unit so the benefit of them being upgraded for free doenst loke too inviting for me.

I guess Protective is really weak indeed and doesnt sweet my playstyle at all on top of that

-Ridiculous. Just consider all the other micro tricks and diplo manipulation such as war bribes "exploity" then too. Wall whips come at a price, and that price isn't immaterial. I find it pretty interesting that people have a problem with using this feature, that was built into the game as a result of patches. Problems such as refusing to change any civic while in a favorite civic (even unrelated ones) have been around just as long, and yet the same people who complain about useful "bugs/exploits" seem to have no problem with such glaring errors . What about the computer map hacking or using hidden modifiers and not displaying them?! We're given a set of rules to play within, and the wallwhips are part of those rules. Unless you're making up additional rules, this is no "exploit" at all. It's not like in madden where the QB can walk 20 yards downfield before the ball is snapped and then teleport it to himself. THAT is an exploit.

- Barb units only pillage rather than attack if they spawn close enough to your borders. Spawnbust. Although as mentioned PRO is semi-nerfed here by the fact that it's often possible with warriors alone on all difficulties.

- Defending units are cheaper hammer-wise than attacking units, and you usually have to leave something behind in the city. I'd still typically prefer the stronger attackers, though, because AI counter-attacks are poor and non-boosted defenders work fine for that.

- Counter promos can be useful on stack defenders like longbows/xbows. A shock xbow (taken off drill I) will do much better vs maces than any other xbow with 1 promo. Longbows with cover can similarly keep AI xbows off your melee, meaning you can continue to progress on the offensive until they get knights (longer if you have elephants).

- PRO is still one of the weakest traits, but wallchops and its ability in the gunpowder eras make it more useful.

[Jaroth]

Just simply mod the game and make the Protective trait also add:

+1 per city


That'll add a little bit more "oomph" to them.

It's like the Creative trait, which adds to cities.

Being "protective" means they're careful, distrustful, and got their eyes on everybody. (Think Tokugawa) Makes sense, right?

You could also remove the City Garrison I promotion and add Drill II instead. But I don't think that's necessary. City Garrison I is useful for defending newly conquered cities during war too.

[The_Dwarf]

Defending units are cheaper hammer-wise than attacking units, and you usually have to leave something behind in the city.

Well the main cost of units is that they cost gold per turn. Furthermore early units like chariots or axeman arent exactly much more costly hammerwise anyway. I prefer even a chariot to have as a barbarian defender. If you are past the early stage cost of hammers really doesnt matter so much at all.

What about the computer map hacking or using hidden modifiers and not displaying them?! We're given a set of rules to play within, and the wallwhips are part of those rules. Unless you're making up additional rules, this is no "exploit" at all.

Of course the less the computer cheats the better. For such a complex programm the KI seem to do a very good job without cheating that much - at least you wont notice it too much. That said the KI has to cheat at some things to have a chance to win against experienced players and thats just not avoidable.
Using exploits is just a different story. One doesnt need to use that to have a chance to win. That said I dont know the wall chop thing we are talking about, it just did sound like a typical exploit to me. If its a feature it would be nice, however how can a chop trick be related to a trait (like its better used for protectiv) ?

[Crusher1]

- I consider these kinds of overflow tricks exploiting and dont use them at all.

They are not exploits but part of the game. If you do consider them exploits then don't bribe a stupid AI to fight wars with you either because you are exploiting their "XML code" which makes them so easy to bribe in the first place. If it's in the game use it. If you don't use it you have no one to blame but yourself for playing poorly with a given trait.

- I disagree on protective being very useful against barbarians, since they go pillaging if facing strong defenders so I definatly prefer attacking units for that purpose.

I don't really know what to say to this except you are 100% completely and utterly wrong, false, incorrect, playing a different game, etc.

- I disagree that captured cities are easier to defend also, if I have to choose if I want an additional attacker to make it easier to capture the city in the first place or a defending unit I will almost always go for additional attackers.

Scroll up.

- That the path for other promotions is opened is nice however in the case of archers its kind of pointless. Or is there some hidden weird archer rush ? Im going to try that next time I get protective civ because im ruined anyway

Bad.

- I Consider Muskets a rather weak unit so the benefit of them being upgraded for free doenst loke too inviting for me.

Who said muskets?

[TheMeInTeam]

Well the main cost of units is that they cost gold per turn. Furthermore early units like chariots or axeman arent exactly much more costly hammerwise anyway. I prefer even a chariot to have as a barbarian defender. If you are past the early stage cost of hammers really doesnt matter so much at all.

This is so painfully untrue that I don't know what to say . GPT is the lesser consideration relative to hammers. Unless you're talking unit supply early on, but that's not dependent on unit type and therefore irrelevant. Just spawnbust the barbs...usually by the time you attack they've slowed down anyway.

Of course the less the computer cheats the better. For such a complex programm the KI seem to do a very good job without cheating that much - at least you wont notice it too much. That said the KI has to cheat at some things to have a chance to win against experienced players and thats just not avoidable.
Using exploits is just a different story. One doesnt need to use that to have a chance to win. That said I dont know the wall chop thing we are talking about, it just did sound like a typical exploit to me. If its a feature it would be nice, however how can a chop trick be related to a trait (like its better used for protectiv) ?

I agree they did a pretty good job given complexity, but the AI is still utterly terrible. For it to compete reasonably with competent humans, we have to spot it all kinds of handicap bonuses. However, agreed-upon handicaps are within the rules set at game start. The AI cheats to know things that we do not agree upon:

- Lying about disposition in some situations
- Map hacking for trades
- Map hacking in terms of the ability to see the max unit move distance for all its units
- Detecting BTS power irrespective of espionage

Among others. They ARE material and you can notice them easily (I lost a game not too long ago because the AI detects worst enemy trades before it knows you, conveniently making me worst enemy upon contact....does that sound normal to you?!).

Also, you use the term exploit quite loosely. Diplo manipulation offers a far greater advantage than wallchop, and can be done with any trait just by knowing AI tendencies. The same people who define a wide range of tactics have no trouble memorizing the patterns of a given AI...but the latter is something not available to AIs, and provides a much greater advantage.

Wallchop is best with PRO due to its discount on walls (100%), making whips and chops 100% more effective. It's possible to get more overflow gold this way, since overflow is capped at the amount the building costs. Keep in mind, however, that OVERFLOW ----> GOLD WAS DELIBERATELY ADDED INTO THE GAME, it used to just be wasted. It also does not = win and frequently is not even your best use of those trees! Labeling such a thing as an exploit is kind of a bad joke, IMO. Similar to how people claim choking is exploitative even though doing it can utterly screw you. If a maneuver offers a valid cost/benefit that is not obvious, it does not provide an overwhelming advantage, and it was put into the game based on its general mechanics...how the hell can anyone define this as an exploit?

I guess the apostolic palace and UN wins are also exploits? That's why I hate the term. There's a difference between valid tactics and cheating. Exploits in a gaming sense are problematic to begin with...what truly separates an exploit from a strong tactic? How "realistic" it is? Balance? What argument are you using? Wallchops certainly don't make PRO a top tier trait even if you use them.

[Ghpstage]

Originally Posted by Iranon

Who said muskets?

I mentioned them as a draftable unit that gains the advantages of PRO


On wall overflow;
The only thing I consider to be a bit OTT about the wall overflow trick is that the large number of multipliers can lead to massive returns far exceeding building Wealth, at its worst early on, 3.5:1 : with PRO, stone, OR and forge.
Although you are building a pretty useless buildings, and need twice the buildings cost to even reach the overflow limit, forcing chops after a whip to be truly effective, so I guess it balances out in the end.

Same kind of thing is vailable to any civ, HE city warriors are quite good

Besides why not use it if the AI is using far worse?

Incidentally the AI probably gets a similar effect from its bonuses, reducing base cost of cheap units such as the archer or even walls themselves! The AI loves to spam both and may well lead to considerable overflow gold, particlarly once they have multipliers.

Originally Posted by TMIT

Similar to how people claim choking is exploitative even though doing it can utterly screw you.

especially if the wandering archers find you on higher levels!

[The_Dwarf]

This is so painfully untrue that I don't know what to say . GPT is the lesser consideration relative to hammers. Unless you're talking unit supply early on, but that's not dependent on unit type and therefore irrelevant. Just spawnbust the barbs...usually by the time you attack they've slowed down anyway.

I guess it depends a bit on the playing style. I can imagine that hammers might be a more important consideration if you play differently than I do. Im not so much complaining about the later game anyway. I agree that protective at that point is fairly useful. However the problem is a different one. Ancient Archers are kind of pretty useless since there are a dozen better ways to fight early babarian attacks regardless if you clear the fog of war level up your attacking units or even build the great wall. Thus you are playing actually with one trait until at least Feudalism/Machinery. In comparision the other traits are benefical from virtually the beginning. And thats exactly the reason why I consider Protective so utterly weak.

Also, you use the term exploit quite loosely. Diplo manipulation offers a far greater advantage than wallchop, and can be done with any trait just by knowing AI tendencies. The same people who define a wide range of tactics have no trouble memorizing the patterns of a given AI...but the latter is something not available to AIs, and provides a much greater advantage.

Wallchop is best with PRO due to its discount on walls (100%), making whips and chops 100% more effective. It's possible to get more overflow gold this way, since overflow is capped at the amount the building costs. Keep in mind, however, that OVERFLOW ----> GOLD WAS DELIBERATELY ADDED INTO THE GAME, it used to just be wasted.

Well for me there is quite a difference between these things. Memorizing KI leaders tendencies and adapting seems quite natural. Building a useless building and chopping forest to create overflow and get gold in exchange is very unnatural. I dont think they added this to the game to add a way to create gold by purpuse. What my guess is that they made this change to compensate for the loss of hammers if someone does this BY ACCIDENT. I mean what stands in the way of building an overly huge army with a relativly undeveloped empire and than use every conquered city to do the wall chop trick to have enough money available so that you can pay army maintainance and conquer everything (that is if the map has only one continent). That sounds rather imbalanced to me and thats one reason im sure the wall chop trick isnt meant to be a feature that should by used by purpose.