Monarchy vs despotism

[boardinfailboat]

is monarchy really better than despotism? I mean the army costs really become unberable no matter how large your empire or how well developed you cities(2 for normal settlements, 4 for big ones)(obv talking about late ancient age early medieval, and no hospitals whatsoever).

[Tone]

Well I don't tend to use monarchy much (I much prefer republic) but one of the key factors that you have not considered is the despotism penalty. (Any tile that produces more than two gold/food/shields loses one of them.) This can limit growth (no point in irrigating grass under despotism), production (mined hills only give two shields rather than three) and you will not gain the full value from high commerce tiles.

A large empire will not need to have a large number of units as the towns that are not on the border will not need protecting. You may think that you need MPs but if you have a decent number of luxes with markets your towns will be happy. This leaves sufficient free units to protect your borders and also attack one of your neighbours in force.

[timerover51]

I use monarchy, and another factor to consider is that the corruption factor is one lower, from "rampant" to "problematic", as well as avoiding the Despotism penalty. That Despotism penalty can really hurt in the early game, as well as when you start sending out colonists.

[ThinkTank]

What they said. And in addition to that, you can cash-rush improvements in monarchy. In despotism you can only pop-rush, which you normally don't want to do in your good cities, as it costs you happiness and production capacity.

[Spoonwood]

The answer is, as Tone hinted at, Repbulic.

[vmxa]

Well the question did not involve Republic, but is Monarchy really better than Despotism. The answer is given by Tone.

[boardinfailboat]

no option of republic for aw games. But as soon as i switch to monarchy i find that i can't run the tech at higher rate than 10% esp if i dont have 2-3 luxes. Most I can do is about 50% with monarchy.
edit: atm i got iroquis 550 ad just starting medieval age. monarch about 20 cities.
income 155
10% science 10% entertainment(1 lux and hanging gardens) and only making 50 per turn. Trying to mass build aqueducts to save a gold in bigger cities.
forbidden palace in use, although couple of big corrupts cities are there.

military:
10 workers
1 settler
28 spearman
9 catapults
31 mw

[TheOverseer714]

Originally Posted by boardinfailboat

no option of republic for aw games. But as soon as i switch to monarchy i find that i can't run the tech at higher rate than 10% esp if i dont have 2-3 luxes. Most I can do is about 50% with monarchy.
edit: atm i got iroquis 550 ad just starting medieval age. monarch about 20 cities.
income 155
10% science 10% entertainment(1 lux and hanging gardens) and only making 50 per turn. Trying to mass build aqueducts to save a gold in bigger cities.
forbidden palace in use, although couple of big corrupts cities are there.

military:
10 workers
1 settler
28 spearman
9 catapults
31 mw

The 28 Spearmen and 10 workers are your main problem, you should only build defenders to guard against initial attacks at border towns and you need more workers to road every tile in use to boost your income. Reverse those numbers and you'd do much better. Those Spearmen sitting around aren't earning their keep, but workers can boost income by improving high gold tiles (rivers and resource tiles).

[boardinfailboat]

Originally Posted by TheOverseer714

The 28 Spearmen and 10 workers are your main problem, you should only build defenders to guard against initial attacks at border towns and you need more workers to road every tile in use to boost your income. Reverse those numbers and you'd do much better. Those Spearmen sitting around aren't earning their keep, but workers can boost income by improving high gold tiles (rivers and resource tiles).

doing much better now, i hurried sun tzu's and saved about 10 gold on barracks upkeep and will also reduce number of defenders by upgrading to pikeman. Hopefully i will spawn another leader to b uild bach's cathedral as well as finally road the newly captured furs.
edit: 79/60 now for military allowed
also i have 29 slaves
+90 gpt

[TheOverseer714]

The preferred ratio of Workers per city is 1.5 if Industrious, 2 for other traits, so good job on getting those slaves to get to the number. I count 2 slaves as 1 worker, so you now have adequate workers, just remember to group them properly to get things improved as fast as possile..

[boardinfailboat]

Originally Posted by TheOverseer714

The preferred ratio of Workers per city is 1.5 if Industrious, 2 for other traits, so good job on getting those slaves to get to the number. I count 2 slaves as 1 worker, so you now have adequate workers, just remember to group them properly to get things improved as fast as possile..

I always had a lt of slaves. That's why i dont build workers except for 2 initally and I built more b/c i wasn't able to cut forests/fix hills fast enough(the area wasn't very good).

[Rodrig0]

Don't slaves get the faster work rate from industrious trait? I remember playing industrious, where I would need 3 regular workers to irrigate in one turn, so if slaves work at 1/2 efficiency, shouldn't it be 6 slaves instead??

And by the way, this might be off topic, but I've been wondering... do crusaders get the industrious bonus for building fortresses? And then from replaceable parts? There have been times when I still keep crusaders after the industrial age, only for MP, and sometimes I send them to help slaves build fortresses... I wonder how would they look? A bunch of war prisioners with chains in their feet, being directed by some weirdos on chain mail and white coat.

[TheOverseer714]

Slaves don't get any advantage from the Industrious trait until Replaceable Parts is researched. AFAIK, Crusaders always work at the same rate, but I've never tested that for a fact.

[timerover51]

Originally Posted by TheOverseer714

Slaves don't get any advantage from the Industrious trait until Replaceable Parts is researched. AFAIK, Crusaders always work at the same rate, but I've never tested that for a fact.

Crusaders work at the same rate regardless of civilization unless you play around with their data in the editor. I keep them around for use later as combat engineers, as they do build fortresses faster than workers. I think that might be hard coded in the program. I like using the Crusader, both unmodified and modified, and have used them with several civilizations, both Industrious and not, and I have not seen any difference in work rate. I think that their normal work rate is equal to that of an Industrious Worker prior to Replaceable Parts.

[Desertsnow]

I'm at war most of the time for most of the game, and almost always from about the middle of the ancient era onward, so I usually establish a Monarchy at my earliest opportunity. It works for me.

[Rodrig0]

Originally Posted by Rodrig0

And by the way, this might be off topic, but I've been wondering... do crusaders get the industrious bonus for building fortresses? And then from replaceable parts?

Quoting myself Yes, they do. I just tested it now, they built fortresses in 16 turns before replaceable parts, and then it was halved to 8 turns after RP. It seems even a holy templar knight could use a shovel made of replaceable parts... made in Taiwan, of course

[Theov]

Despotism
A.k.a.: Despo
'Base' government, this is the government where you start with. Good for starting Civs with little income, happiness problems (lack of luxuries) or without the income to support a large military.

Worker Efficiency: 100%
Hurry Method: Forced labor
Corruption: Rampant
War Weariness: none
Draft Rate: 2
Military Police Limit: 2
Unit Support Town/City/Metro: 4/4/4
Notes: Any square which produces more than 2 food, commerce, or shields produces 1 less. (aka 'Despo Penalty')

Monarchy
The lack of war weariness (WW) can be more valuable than the commerce bonus in Republic and Democracy, if you plan to be at war for a long time.
The presence of military police can compensate a lack of luxuries and makes a good combination for small kingdoms at war and have an army a Republic can't support.

Worker Efficiency: 100%
Hurry Method: Pay citizens
Corruption: Problematic
War Weariness: none
Draft Rate: 2
Military Police Limit: 3
Unit Support Town/City/Metro: 2/4/8

[Theov]

I'd say that when you're empire has grown and the income increases (think: 6 cities and mostly roaded) then the corruption becomes a problem, and moving to Monarchy can be much better than Depo.

I also don't think you took the despo penalty into factor; any square which produces more than 2 food, commerce, or shields produces 1 less. This cripples you too much not to change to republic or monarchy.

[Calis]

I can only think of two reasons not to switch to Monarchy ASAP.

1. The unit upkeep for towns is higher in Despotism
2. Wrong time for an anarchy because you need new units while at war.

Other than that Monarchy is always better.

[Nergal]

Monarchy is way better than Despotism, although its harder to get than Republic normally due to the longer Tech path which means popping Monarchy with Philosophy doesnt work too often. Its a good choice for early wars when your towns arent established enough to fuel Republic. Personally I wouldnt have built catapults, maybe 2 spears per town for garrison and a mixed stack or two of swords, archers and spears for attacking the nearest Civ.