Vassalization for Mana

[Tlalynet]

I'm wanting to go on a large ToM Amurite Mana spree game and wanted to ask about people expirances about vassalizing for palace mana.

So far I've only done it a few times, and the AI seems to have higher value on Mana than they did on construction era elephants in BTS. Demanding mana seems to produce a very high risk of losing a vassal and having to kill them all. So far I've done it with the Kazzad, even though they only have two mana they don't like it one bit. They break the initial deal ASAP and have declared war even when all they have is a piddly tundra bound city. I've tried it with the Kazzad in two different games with the same results. I had the Ljosfer voluntarily capitulate, the canceled the deal for all three mana ASAP, but they gave one in and let me keep it the rest of the game after that, and they where reasonably strong (not bottom of the list anyway) The Balseraphs on the other hand let me keep all three of their mana when I beat them back to a one tile island and never said boo about it.

Is the willingness to give mana based mainly on AI personality or power graph? Is there any point at which you can get all three mana from the AI consistently or should you pick your favorite? Are there AI that will always die rather than give their mana up?

Other experiences or (better yet) knowledge of the code would be very much appreciated.

[Avahz Darkwood]

Runs for the hills as a bunch of Mana Haters rise up pitch forks and all...

Not too long ago this was in a topic that was hotly debated. But as too your answer it has to do with both the AI personality and the relative power of each civ. That being said the code monkeys here could explain it too you a bit better.

[Lone Wolf]

I always turn off Vassal States anyway. I find the way they work inconsistent with the feeling and atmosphere of the mod.

[JonathanStrange]

I've always had good experiences demanding mana from vassals but I'd thought it was 'cause everybody liked me - and their relative powerlessness left them little choice. I've not discerned a pattern though because I generally only ask for one of their manas and give them stuff too. It's like real life; you get some, you give some.

[ICanHasName?]

Before you vassalize someone, kill as much of their stuff as you can and take them down to 1 city. The instant they capitulate, demand all their mana, but don't demand other stuff as you can just trade for that.

If you wait any longer they start to forget the righteous beating you gave them and fight to the death to protect their mana.

In general the AI weights mana way high.

[Luckmann]

Originally Posted by JonathanStrange

I've always had good experiences demanding mana from vassals but I'd thought it was 'cause everybody liked me - and their relative powerlessness left them little choice. I've not discerned a pattern though because I generally only ask for one of their manas and give them stuff too. It's like real life; you get some, you give some.

As a vassal? You're joking, right?
As a vassal, you should sit down and shut up.

The fact that vassals talk back after just a few turns turns me off. Vassals should be an extension of me and my main nation. Not some mooching bastard sitting on a 1-city powerhouse.

[Charybdis]

Speaking of vassalization, I'd actually like to see the ability to tell a vassal to not expand anymore.

[Luckmann]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Speaking of vassalization, I'd actually like to see the ability to tell a vassal to not expand anymore.

I'd like for there to be the ability to tell them to stop everything.

[Tlalynet]

I looked back a few pages for the topic but couldn't find it, I searched for it but only got an outdated one where vassalizing lead to crazy declarations of war.

I'd agree with Jonathanstrange about giving and getting but they value their mana so highly they want some of my resources I only have one of just to get one piece, I would definatly trade them 1:1 or even 3:1 resources to mana, but alas, no one will... That said I agree with luckman, they are alive only because of my patiences, they should me more eager to keep me happy than to protect their mana.

Ican, good advice, even then the Kazzad rebeled against me, it must take a very big powergraph to keep them down. The sad thing is their mana isn't very valuable, you can get both of them from Shrines.

I like when capitulated vassals expand, it just moves me closer to domination and gives them a chance to contribute troops to a war. I don't think I've seen them expand more than one city on their own, ever, and I like vassals. The only way I've seen vassals expand is if its BTS and they are a colony or I gift them cities. In what case do your vassals have space to expand? Going for Conquest?

[Honor]

I always get all 3 of my vassals' palace mana and they very rarely (or make that "never") rebel. I reduce them to 1 city, usually stuck somewhere within my cultural borders, do not sign an open borders agreement, convert them to my religion and gift them techs + resources to make them friendly.

[Luckmann]

Originally Posted by Honor

I always get all 3 of my vassals' palace mana and they very rarely (or make that "never") rebel. I reduce them to 1 city, usually stuck somewhere within my cultural borders, do not sign an open borders agreement, convert them to my religion and gift them techs + resources to make them friendly.

As a vassal, they become part of your team and automaticly gain all techs you have.
And then they trade it to everyone else.
And then they stay pissed at you because you invaded them and were a general douche.

Vassals should be forced to be "Friendly", and never, ever, deny you what you ask. Especially since you can't declare war on them when they start to talk back.
They also shouldn't be allowed to trade techs.

[Visage Darkskin]

Besides what has already been mentioned, a couple of things that I noticed where:
a. Demanding mana as soon as they capitulated worked for most of the less aggressive civs.
b. For some of the most aggressive I could hold on for a while and try to get into their good side, giving them some things to increase relation points.
c. Declaring or being at war with a third civ, makes my vassals more willing to give me their mana, even the more aggressive ones.

Good luck

[Lone Wolf]

As a vassal, they become part of your team and automaticly gain all techs you have.

That's not correct.

[Luckmann]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

That's not correct.

I blame rum. I may confuse this with the issues I had with teams.

[Valerarren]

Originally Posted by Visage Darkskin

c. Declaring or being at war with a third civ, makes my vassals more willing to give me their mana, even the more aggressive ones.
Good luck

This is what I tend to use. Don't worry about asking for mana until I'm at war with someone else. Then they basically always give me their mana.

[JonathanStrange]

When I say I give my vassals stuff, a tech or resource, it's not in trade for their mana. It's just for diplomatic bonuses with the idea of reducing the AI's resentment of my having "borrowed" a cup of mana a turn or two previously. It's an Ljosalfar thing - but I've not had any vassals revolt against me (except the Khazad once) and I don't reduce them to one city vassals either unless I'm dealing with an evil civ (which I rarely vassalize anyway, the scoundrels).

[Rutee]

Originally Posted by ICanHasName?

Before you vassalize someone, kill as much of their stuff as you can and take them down to 1 city. The instant they capitulate, demand all their mana, but don't demand other stuff as you can just trade for that.

If you wait any longer they start to forget the righteous beating you gave them and fight to the death to protect their mana.

In general the AI weights mana way high.

...Seriously? I mean, I do that too, but I find that if I actually want to GET that Mana, I'm better off liberating a bunch of the AI's old cities for the positive modifier. Reduces my maintenance fees and makes them more likely to actually use the National Units they get.

[Avahz Darkwood]

Originally Posted by Tlalynet

I looked back a few pages for the topic but couldn't find it, I searched for it but only got an outdated one where vassalizing lead to crazy declarations of war.

I'd agree with Jonathanstrange about giving and getting but they value their mana so highly they want some of my resources I only have one of just to get one piece, I would definatly trade them 1:1 or even 3:1 resources to mana, but alas, no one will... That said I agree with luckman, they are alive only because of my patiences, they should me more eager to keep me happy than to protect their mana.

Ican, good advice, even then the Kazzad rebeled against me, it must take a very big powergraph to keep them down. The sad thing is their mana isn't very valuable, you can get both of them from Shrines.

I like when capitulated vassals expand, it just moves me closer to domination and gives them a chance to contribute troops to a war. I don't think I've seen them expand more than one city on their own, ever, and I like vassals. The only way I've seen vassals expand is if its BTS and they are a colony or I gift them cities. In what case do your vassals have space to expand? Going for Conquest?

It's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=304359

Though I am (as you can read) a little (ahem) biased. But as aways make your own mind up and leave it to Keal to keep or change

[Thonnas]

Originally Posted by Luckmann

Vassals should be forced to be "Friendly", and never, ever, deny you what you ask. Especially since you can't declare war on them when they start to talk back.

This is the most broken part about vassals, and why I never take a vassal in any mod. If you aren't strong enough to crush them, they probably wont capitulate and might even vassalize to another civ (in which case I REALLY want to destroy them), but if you are powerful enough to crush them, you may as well just do it.

After all, what is best in life?

[schlalex]

Yeah, i am curious if there is a value in the xml-files which can be changed to make sure, overwhelmed civs will give all their stuff.
(I hoped to see this changed, cause in the ChangeLog for .41 this very change was added. But i havent vassalized anyone yet so i could not test this).