KevinRuddPM
Sleepwalking Past Hope
I always found Marco Polo's Embassy, Leonardo's Workshop and Great Library to be really useful in big 8 player games.
Most Useful Wonder
- Thread starter KevinRuddPM
- Start date
The most useful wonder is either Michelangelo's Chapel or J.S. Bach's Cathedral. Mike's makes more citizens content, but Bach's effect is unique and can't be achieved any other way.
Marco Polo's Embassy is also very useful, especially on a large map.
Marco Polo's Embassy is also very useful, especially on a large map.
![[tot]](/images/smilies/civ2tot.gif "Test of Time [tot]")
I second the motion.
Civiscool:D
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1
i don't know what Marco Polo's Embassy does, won't tell me in-game
i think Great Library is good
i think Great Library is good
Marco Polo gives you a free embassy with all other players. When playing the ai this wonder is fantastic. You can get just get new techs (which you can chose) from the ai and maps. The only important part is to keep the ai happy towards you and that is easily done with some tech gifting.
Great Library gives you new techs which are discovered by two civs and is not always a good tech....meaning a tech you don't want at that moment because it slows down your own research (wrong part of techtree).
That's why most players prefer Marco Polo above Great Library...
Great Library gives you new techs which are discovered by two civs and is not always a good tech....meaning a tech you don't want at that moment because it slows down your own research (wrong part of techtree).
That's why most players prefer Marco Polo above Great Library...
I'v only been playing at Prince level so far, and have just moved up to King, so probably don't have the experience of using the happiness wonders beyond just building them to ease my game a little.
So far the best two far and away for me have been Marco Polo's (as mentioned) and Leonardo's. Keeping my entire army one step ahead of everyone else in tech without having to spend any more time beyond a few caravans on it is invaluable in games of conquest ^^.
So far the best two far and away for me have been Marco Polo's (as mentioned) and Leonardo's. Keeping my entire army one step ahead of everyone else in tech without having to spend any more time beyond a few caravans on it is invaluable in games of conquest ^^.
You can get allong perfectly well without the pyramids; just use republic or democracy "We Love the Consul/President Day." In any case, speedy growth can be a bit of a problem in the early game because it can cause civil disorder at higher levels.
Pyramids are enough of an AI favorite that it is usually more useful to get a different wonder instead of scrambling for them.
Pyramids are enough of an AI favorite that it is usually more useful to get a different wonder instead of scrambling for them.
Ace
Emperor
The really nice thing about the pyramids is that the AI loves to go for it. That means while the AIs are trying to get the Pyramids, you can get HG, and the Colossus. And, you can easily take the Pyramids city once the AI has kindly built it for you.
And the Prof. is quite right about not really needing the Pyramids, especially at the higher levels. Once you have prepared your city infrastructure and have democracy (or Rep.), you switch govs and jack up the luxuries and watch your cities explode at the rate of one new citizen each turn until the food runs out.
And the Prof. is quite right about not really needing the Pyramids, especially at the higher levels. Once you have prepared your city infrastructure and have democracy (or Rep.), you switch govs and jack up the luxuries and watch your cities explode at the rate of one new citizen each turn until the food runs out.
Leonardo's Workshop at places 1, 2, 3 and 4.
I mean, free upgrades. Come on, that saves so much money.
Darwin's and Marco Polo after that.
Darwin, if done right, gives you 2 full advances. So in turn X you finish a tech, then in turn X+1 you finish Darwin and get 2 new ones. That's 3 techs in 2 turns.
Just don't be so stupid to finish darwin when you're almost done finishing your tech.
If you have a tech lead, you'll never look back.
The Great Library is only useful when you're behind. I try not to be behind, and get those techs later on anyway.
I mean, free upgrades. Come on, that saves so much money.
Darwin's and Marco Polo after that.
Darwin, if done right, gives you 2 full advances. So in turn X you finish a tech, then in turn X+1 you finish Darwin and get 2 new ones. That's 3 techs in 2 turns.
Just don't be so stupid to finish darwin when you're almost done finishing your tech.
If you have a tech lead, you'll never look back.
The Great Library is only useful when you're behind. I try not to be behind, and get those techs later on anyway.
My essential wonders:
Great Library, so that I have zero research costs.
Leonardo's Workshop, which maximizes the potential of Great Library
Later in the game, United Nations - enemies beg for peace rather than counter-attack.
My preferable wonders that most help beat enemies:
Adam Smith's - income soars as costs are cut.
Magellan's Voyage - accelerates seaborne trade.
Hoover Dam - accelerates factory output.
Great Library, so that I have zero research costs.
Leonardo's Workshop, which maximizes the potential of Great Library
Later in the game, United Nations - enemies beg for peace rather than counter-attack.
My preferable wonders that most help beat enemies:
Adam Smith's - income soars as costs are cut.
Magellan's Voyage - accelerates seaborne trade.
Hoover Dam - accelerates factory output.
Either Mike's Chapel or Hoover. No rioting in the cities and high production plus pollution reduction... it's almost all we need.
Plus some wonders work... wonderfully in conjunction - Colossus+Copernicus+Newton+Shakespeare = SSC whcih handles ALL of science with proper trade routes.
United Nations - priceless later in the game, when the AI only thinks how to tear you apart.
King Richard's - yeah, I love the shield boost, especially in large cities, best if I have enough cash and time to build in SSC
Other than that:
Marco's - very useful, although I don't build it on smaller maps.
Leo's Workshop to upgrade warriors all the way up to riflemen, as well as settlers to engineers.
Adam Smith's is useful on lower difficulty levels, but it can be a decent boost if built early on deity.
SETI - although at later stage in the game, my SSC is usually doing pretty good job of providing me with techs every 2-3 turns. Even less with well placed vans.
Apollo is a must in landing games so it just has to be built, especially if you're in the tech lead, to start the SS early on.
Bach's Cathedral - very useful if you can get the tech early on, and can afford an off path tech at that time. Best to discover the tech once you have a fully working SSC.
Magellan's - Sometimes, when the distance really counts for better trade routes. Most of the time though I rely on close enemy civs that are not too far away. After that - colonies + airports work nicely, although there's nothing as good as a decent ship chain.
I almost never build:
Eiffel Tower (useless... it really is)
Great Wall (uhm... no)
Great Library - if I can afford it, I build it and then disband the city. Perfect if the AI builds it and I find the city and raze it till it vanishes
Oracle (expires to early, plus I don't usually build temples unless its the only building left)
Statue of Liberty (once in demo, I don't switch till I discover everything,
otherwise oedo for revolutions earlier)
Hanging Gardens (expire too early, plus I usually go for early colossus + Cope)
Sun Tzu (Leo upgrades everything anyway and I lose vet status)
Manhattan (unless my ship has landed and I feel like playing some more)
Lighthouse (maybe on island maps)
Darwin's (let the AI build it and then steal the techs =D)
Pyramids (demo or rep +super growth make granaries obsolote)
Women's Suffrage (although it might be useful in conquest games)
Cure for cancer - also useful to control unhappines if you have to slide the lux bars further to the left, to catch up. Other than that, better spend the production for a few more vans and transports to establish good trade routes. AI rarely builds it so it's another plus
Plus some wonders work... wonderfully in conjunction - Colossus+Copernicus+Newton+Shakespeare = SSC whcih handles ALL of science with proper trade routes.
United Nations - priceless later in the game, when the AI only thinks how to tear you apart.
King Richard's - yeah, I love the shield boost, especially in large cities, best if I have enough cash and time to build in SSC
Other than that:
Marco's - very useful, although I don't build it on smaller maps.
Leo's Workshop to upgrade warriors all the way up to riflemen, as well as settlers to engineers.
Adam Smith's is useful on lower difficulty levels, but it can be a decent boost if built early on deity.
SETI - although at later stage in the game, my SSC is usually doing pretty good job of providing me with techs every 2-3 turns. Even less with well placed vans.
Apollo is a must in landing games so it just has to be built, especially if you're in the tech lead, to start the SS early on.
Bach's Cathedral - very useful if you can get the tech early on, and can afford an off path tech at that time. Best to discover the tech once you have a fully working SSC.
Magellan's - Sometimes, when the distance really counts for better trade routes. Most of the time though I rely on close enemy civs that are not too far away. After that - colonies + airports work nicely, although there's nothing as good as a decent ship chain.
I almost never build:
Eiffel Tower (useless... it really is)
Great Wall (uhm... no)
Great Library - if I can afford it, I build it and then disband the city. Perfect if the AI builds it and I find the city and raze it till it vanishes
Oracle (expires to early, plus I don't usually build temples unless its the only building left)
Statue of Liberty (once in demo, I don't switch till I discover everything,
otherwise oedo for revolutions earlier)
Hanging Gardens (expire too early, plus I usually go for early colossus + Cope)
Sun Tzu (Leo upgrades everything anyway and I lose vet status)
Manhattan (unless my ship has landed and I feel like playing some more)
Lighthouse (maybe on island maps)
Darwin's (let the AI build it and then steal the techs =D)
Pyramids (demo or rep +super growth make granaries obsolote)
Women's Suffrage (although it might be useful in conquest games)
Cure for cancer - also useful to control unhappines if you have to slide the lux bars further to the left, to catch up. Other than that, better spend the production for a few more vans and transports to establish good trade routes. AI rarely builds it so it's another plus
Ace
Emperor
Blasph23,
Why in the world would you disband the city that has the Great Library in it? While I agree that the only real purpose of the GL is that the AI loves to build it and while its doing that, you can build a wonder you really want/need, whats the point of destroying it once you have it? After all, it IS worth 20 pts on your score at the end of the game and it doesn't hurt to keep it once you have spent the resources to build it.
Why in the world would you disband the city that has the Great Library in it? While I agree that the only real purpose of the GL is that the AI loves to build it and while its doing that, you can build a wonder you really want/need, whats the point of destroying it once you have it? After all, it IS worth 20 pts on your score at the end of the game and it doesn't hurt to keep it once you have spent the resources to build it.
Clockworker
Chieftain
Leonardo's Workshop was pretty much obligatory to get in every match I've played. It saved just so much time/money. Marco Polo is great if you want to keep up with the tech tree or get some map trade going. Darwin for the same reason as Marco Polo and I actually enjoy the Eiffel Tower because it prevents me from getting ganged by everyone else sometimes 
The Richard one was great to get some wonder/unit production going.
The Richard one was great to get some wonder/unit production going.I would disband it to avoid getting off-path techs and slowing down. So far I've only done it a couple of times, in more than 10 years of playing this game. Of course, another thing is if I capture it and it has already expired - then there's obviously no reason to disband it.
Plus you forgot one thing - me and a whole bunch of other people often play for the fun, so 20 more or less points means next to nothing to me.
Besides I also said that I would do that ONLY when I can clearly afford it. It's good to have another civ build it so that I can get more important wonders, but it's just one of the ways to play this game. Again, disbanding it to prevent enemy from obtaining free techs as well as preventing my own civ from getting unwanted techs is still a nice trick I think.
Plus you forgot one thing - me and a whole bunch of other people often play for the fun, so 20 more or less points means next to nothing to me.
Besides I also said that I would do that ONLY when I can clearly afford it. It's good to have another civ build it so that I can get more important wonders, but it's just one of the ways to play this game. Again, disbanding it to prevent enemy from obtaining free techs as well as preventing my own civ from getting unwanted techs is still a nice trick I think.
art vandelay
Chieftain
I play for fun too, so I appreciate your comment.
I understand the strategic reasons for not building the Great Library, and haven't built it in a long time. I usually have enough of a tech lead over the AI that I don't miss it, and I can get desired techs via embassies or by theft.
However, I built the GL in a recent game because I had a bunch of food caravans standing around my wonder city waiting for something to do. Now I can see the appeal of the GL. For one thing, it's always fun to get something for free. In this case, you get techs without researching them. Yes, I know they're not really "free" since getting one tech will set you back for the next tech. But still, you get the feeling that you're getting a free tech and that's fun. For another thing, the free techs can come at unexpected times. We all like to be surprised with free gifts.
In other words, I can see how the Great Library can add to the enjoyment factor. And really, that's why I play the game.
I understand the strategic reasons for not building the Great Library, and haven't built it in a long time. I usually have enough of a tech lead over the AI that I don't miss it, and I can get desired techs via embassies or by theft.
However, I built the GL in a recent game because I had a bunch of food caravans standing around my wonder city waiting for something to do. Now I can see the appeal of the GL. For one thing, it's always fun to get something for free. In this case, you get techs without researching them. Yes, I know they're not really "free" since getting one tech will set you back for the next tech. But still, you get the feeling that you're getting a free tech and that's fun. For another thing, the free techs can come at unexpected times. We all like to be surprised with free gifts.
In other words, I can see how the Great Library can add to the enjoyment factor. And really, that's why I play the game.
Terrapin
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2003
- Messages
- 505
Actually, CfC is key to super city growth in late Democracy. With extra unhappiness/riot factor from having (way, way) too many cities, you need your 1 extra happy person in each city otherwise your celebrations cease every time you have an odd number of citizens. You cannot just use more luxuries to overcome this because only 2x(City Size) cups count toward your happiness no matter how high you set the luxury rate. The alternative is to build a lot of courthouses, but if you have (way, way) too many cities then you save a lot of shields and the upkeep on all those court houses by building CfC. Plus, I just generally prefer to get things done by building Wonders rather then mere buildings.
My favorite Wonders are Mikes, Copernicus' Observatory and Marco Polo's Embassy. The lamest are Great Library (which actually manages to be worse than useless), Eiffel Tower and Manhattan Project ( I hate nukes, too much cleaning up).
It's pretty meaningless to ask which tool is most useful, without specifying a task. Is a hammer more useful than an umbrella ? But our answers can be interesting and revealing!
If you play only for fun, then your favorite Wonder is probably going to seem pretty random to the other players. If you play for some unusual goal [I include OCC, High Score, maybe even MP games as "unusual" - but this is debatable], the same comment.
In my opinion, the most strategically interesting games arise in competitions, such as CFC GOTMs. Eventually, most GOTM players learn to outgrow the AI, and then take advantage ASAP. The most useful WoWs for that are early game WoWs:
Marco Polo [for early techs and maps]
Hanging Gardens [assuming you play Emp / Diety]
Lighthouse [to speed up transportation, on most maps]
Also plausible, but not #1: Pyramids, Colossus, maybe Great Wall or Sun Tzu... or maybe the science WoWs [but only if you are playiing for landing]. I do not include some powerful WoWs such as Leo's, Magellan's, Mike's etc. because ideally the game should be over [or very predictable] before they are even built.
Note: A few good players [such as Grigor] prefer not to build ANY WoWs in conquest games on small maps.
If you play only for fun, then your favorite Wonder is probably going to seem pretty random to the other players. If you play for some unusual goal [I include OCC, High Score, maybe even MP games as "unusual" - but this is debatable], the same comment.
In my opinion, the most strategically interesting games arise in competitions, such as CFC GOTMs. Eventually, most GOTM players learn to outgrow the AI, and then take advantage ASAP. The most useful WoWs for that are early game WoWs:
Marco Polo [for early techs and maps]
Hanging Gardens [assuming you play Emp / Diety]
Lighthouse [to speed up transportation, on most maps]
Also plausible, but not #1: Pyramids, Colossus, maybe Great Wall or Sun Tzu... or maybe the science WoWs [but only if you are playiing for landing]. I do not include some powerful WoWs such as Leo's, Magellan's, Mike's etc. because ideally the game should be over [or very predictable] before they are even built.
Note: A few good players [such as Grigor] prefer not to build ANY WoWs in conquest games on small maps.
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