Stealth destroyer question

[peter450]

I've been pottering about with unitinfo's of late and found a few odd bits here an there

The stand out one so far was the Missile Cruiser AI values

I've spotted another, but not sure if it is or is not a issue so will put to you guys

The Stealth destroyer has the same AI values assigned to it as the destroyer, namely
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_ATTACK_SEA</UnitAIType>
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_RESERVE_SEA</UnitAIType>
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_ESCORT_SEA</UnitAIType>
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_EXPLORE_SEA</UnitAIType>

Now is it me or is the Escort one a bit out of place here? if the unit is invisable to anything but other SD, then if there are no ships capable of detecting them, and these make up the bulk of a escort stack there not going to be seen and the transports are going to get attacked instead no?

[Cybah]

and the transports are going to get attacked instead no?

i think you are right. the stealth destroyer will only defend if there is an enemy stealth destroyer which can detect it. the transport will be destroyed otherwise.

[Balmipour]

I can confirm you than I recently tried to escort a transport with stealth detroyers, and...
My destroyers watched the enemy regular destroyer, sinking my transport.

It might be considered logical, as it's a stealth unit, not intended to reveal, but I've personnally been REALLY disappointed by this crappy unit.

Plus, it seems to me that "transport" units are the last used when defending, even if they got a better power, no ? (i.e. trireme will protect transport)
If I'm correct, it's really a shame that stealth destroyer behave this way

Anyway, I guess I'll just ban this unit from my personal army, as It seems completly pointless to me now.

[MadmanAtW]

When looking for the best defender, a transport will have its effective power decreased based on the value of the units it is carrying. So an empty transport will fight just like any other unit of its strength, but a loaded one is put in the queue as though it were much weaker.

So yes, SDs are unfortunately not a way to say "surprise! You shouldn't have attacked my transport!", which is sad, 'cause that would be really cool. Instead they're a way to say "surprise, you shouldn't have left that unit undefended where you thought it was safe!" which can be its own fun but requires different play.

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by Balmipour

I can confirm you than I recently tried to escort a transport with stealth detroyers, and...
My destroyers watched the enemy regular destroyer, sinking my transport.

It might be considered logical, as it's a stealth unit, not intended to reveal, but I've personnally been REALLY disappointed by this crappy unit.

Plus, it seems to me that "transport" units are the last used when defending, even if they got a better power, no ? (i.e. trireme will protect transport)
If I'm correct, it's really a shame that stealth destroyer behave this way

Anyway, I guess I'll just ban this unit from my personal army, as It seems completly pointless to me now.

Try using stealth destroyers in more "stealthy" roles. Similar to submarines except they're harder again to detect (only other stealth destroyers can see them).

Using them for stack defense is indeed very pointless.

[jdog5000]

Hmmm ... yes, the AI shouldn't be using these as primary escorts since they don't actually defend the transports, but what should it be using at the end of the game?

Right now, Destroyers and Stealth Destroyers are the only Industrial/Modern era ships which might run an escort AI. It's worth noting that attack and reserve ship AI types will also shadow/join transport stacks, but the AI will pump out plenty of its official escorts to travel with it transports.

[phungus420]

Originally Posted by jdog5000

Hmmm ... yes, the AI shouldn't be using these as primary escorts since they don't actually defend the transports, but what should it be using at the end of the game?

Right now, Destroyers and Stealth Destroyers are the only Industrial/Modern era ships which might run an escort AI. It's worth noting that attack and reserve ship AI types will also shadow/join transport stacks, but the AI will pump out plenty of its official escorts to travel with it transports.

My belief is since you're modding the dll anyway, to give SDDs the ability defend full transports...

[peter450]

Either that or, just have the AI use regular destroyers as it's primary escorts, i'm sure it won't be an issue if a few stealth destoyers are in the stack/shadowing the stack, but by removing the escort AI routine it should mean the AI will only stack/shadow a transport group with a few of these and the majority of the primary escort ships will be destroyers

Destroyers are the all round best unit for the job i think, they detect subs and can intercept planes, a stealth destoyer can do neither and has only 2 FS which give it only marginally better combat odds, it's more expensive and just does not suit the role of primary escort as well as the standard destroyer

I always toyed with idea of making it into a late game version of the privateer but thats quite a big change, so i have not actually done it

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by phungus420

My belief is since you're modding the dll anyway, to give SDDs the ability defend full transports...

I'd prefer if it the rules were left alone.

[NP300]

In my personal mod, I solve this problem by making stealth destroyers visible. I just make them more powerful than regular destroyers, particularly against aircraft. I make destroyers upgrade to stealth destroyers. I reserve invisibility for subs.

It really is unrealistic to have stealth destroyers be as stealthy as subs. No naval unit can be as stealthy as subs. Real life stealth destroyers are just more resistant to detection by radar (read: by aircraft). They can still be seen by other ships and, in particular, can still be detected by the sound that they produce well beyond the horizon. In real life subs and listening devices can detect ships thousands of miles away by the sound that they emit.

[MadmanAtW]

I agree with leaving the rules alone overall, though I confess I think it would be cool if you could set your stealth units to "defend" similar to the missions you can put your aircraft on.

[jdog5000]

Yeah, I'll leave the rules alone here I think ... the only real solution would be adding a stealth defend mission, which just isn't worth the time cost. The AI usage though will be fixed in 0.76.

[Elkad]

Is it possible to make a unit less visible, without being completely invisible?

By that I mean make it only visible if a unit moves into the square adjacent, rather than from 2-3 squares away.

A Stealth destroyer could then sneak thru wide-spaced picket lines, but if another ship stumbled on it (or headed for a non-stealth ship in the same stack, like transports it was escorting), it would suddenly see the SD (and the SD would defend properly).

Of course, its outside the scope of BetterAI anyway.

[Ninja2]

The problem goes away if you delete <UnitAIType>UNITAI_ESCORT_SEA</UnitAIType> from the unit xml, right? So as long as Destroyers don't obsolete, the transports will be escorted...

On the same note, you might even consider giving battleships the escort mission? Or will that just make the AI build too many (expensive) battleships?

[jdog5000]

Originally Posted by Ninja2

The problem goes away if you delete <UnitAIType>UNITAI_ESCORT_SEA</UnitAIType> from the unit xml, right? So as long as Destroyers don't obsolete, the transports will be escorted...

Correct. I'm convinced this is just a copy-and-paste error by someone at Firaxis moving over the Destroyer def ... it happens.

Originally Posted by Ninja2

On the same note, you might even consider giving battleships the escort mission? Or will that just make the AI build too many (expensive) battleships?

That might cause them to build too many battleships, though I'm not sure about that actually ... Destroyers are better escorts since they can intercept and spot subs, the AI takes this into account. Battle ships will join or shadow assault flotillas in regularly anyway.

[Roland Johansen]

Originally Posted by NP300

In my personal mod, I solve this problem by making stealth destroyers visible. I just make them more powerful than regular destroyers, particularly against aircraft. I make destroyers upgrade to stealth destroyers. I reserve invisibility for subs.

It really is unrealistic to have stealth destroyers be as stealthy as subs. No naval unit can be as stealthy as subs. Real life stealth destroyers are just more resistant to detection by radar (read: by aircraft). They can still be seen by other ships and, in particular, can still be detected by the sound that they produce well beyond the horizon. In real life subs and listening devices can detect ships thousands of miles away by the sound that they emit.

Heh, funny, I think I've made about the same changes. It makes more sense that way (IMO). But I also agree with the other posters that it is not the kind of changes that the BetterAI mod should be making.

[Minor Annoyance]

I'm wondering if having the stealth destroyer be an escort is intended for it to spot other stealth destroyers for the stack, but it's getting used as a sole defender for everything when really it just counters the one unit. Would UNITAI_COUNTER be better for that purpose?

[jdog5000]

Definitely not UNITAI_COUNTER ... that's for land units. It's true that it does spot other SD, but the AI will still build SD and bring them in a stack if we take away UNITAI_ESCORT_SEA, it just won't use them as the main escort.