[BTS] Civ4 BTS v3.19 Patch

[PieceOfMind]

So for the case we're interested in,

iMaxOverflow = iProductionNeeded
iMaxOverflowForGold = iProductionNeeded

iOverflow = iMaxOverflow (in the case we're interested in)

iOverflow > 0

so I assume this line means iOverflow is reduced if the hammer multiplier was greater than 0%

iProductionGold = max(0,(some number less than or equal to iProductionNeeded) - iProductionNeeded) = max(0, some number that cannot be greater than 0) = 0 (uh oh!)

[Balderstrom]

Originally Posted by Caboose

"- Collateral damage modifiers, collateral damage immunity, and air defense modifiers, multiply instead of add."

What does this mean in practice?

It means, things that add +XX% to collateral defense, or +XX% to damage
Will actually increase the base by XX%

Previously in the code, it would start with a base (integer) of 100 and then the code would add or subtract integers from/to 100. There were a number of cases where you could actually wind up with a value less than 0.

And when you would add +xx% attack -xx% defense the code would just add and subtract integer values, instead of actually applying a percentage increase/decrease of the related values (ie multiplication).

I mentioned this over in Solver's thread when I used to participate in the Collateral debate. But I believe I was overruled

For Example:
A unit with +100% Collateral damage, 100 + 100% = 200
vs a unit with +50% Collateral Protection: 200 - 50 = 150
So you take 150% damage from Collateral damage, instead of 100%,

Another Example:
A unit with +100% Collateral damage, 100 + 100% = 200
vs a unit with +100% Collateral Protection: 200 - 100 = 100
So you take 100% damage, instead of 0.

A unit with 50% Collateral protection should take 1/2 damage.
A unit with 100% protection should be immune :-)

So if the code is now doing multiplication instead of addition, it should actually work as the in-game descriptions state it works.

[Balderstrom]

Isn't the no gold overflow just bringing BTS back to how CIV Vanilla functioned prior to some of the later patches?

[Caboose]

Aha, ok thanks.

Wait, doesn't this mean that the Drill promotions now get a slight boost? That vs units with more than 100% collateral damage, they are now taking less damage from these?

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

So for the case we're interested in,

iMaxOverflow = iProductionNeeded
iMaxOverflowForGold = iProductionNeeded

iOverflow = iMaxOverflow (in the case we're interested in)

iOverflow > 0

so I assume this line means iOverflow is reduced if the hammer multiplier was greater than 0%

iProductionGold = max(0,(some number less than or equal to iProductionNeeded) - iProductionNeeded) = max(0, some number that cannot be greater than 0) = 0 (uh oh!)

On second thought, I'm not sure I did that right, because I'm not sure exactly what is done by getCurrentProductionDifference, and getProductionDifference.

[dalamb]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

By the way, I'm still a bit disappointed to see that the No Espionage game option still converts espionage points into culture. As far as I'm concerned that game mode is still broken.

Without something like this, the power of buildings that generate would be reduced. I guess some people would prefer the one, other people the other.

Originally Posted by EmperorFool

I ended up using the Subversion trick I mentioned above:

1. Commit 3.17 files to a new SVN repo
2. Commit the 3.19 files over them
3. Apply the diffs using SVN Merge to a local copy of BULL.
4. Use an editor with "find in files" to search for <<<<<<, the conflict markers from SVN

Is this really a "trick"? I'd have thought it was the way one would want SVN to work.

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

So overflow now appears to be limited to the build cost of the unit/building and anything over that is lost - not converted to gold. Chop even one forest into partially completed scout and you'll probably lose hammers. This means MM is back.

What's "MM"?

[Shurdus]

So basically the new patch does indeed introduce at the very least one bug that should be solvable with a new unofficial patch.

I still think that the MM implications are not that bad though. If you time your builds and chops carefully you would not get that much overflow anyway. This does not mean that we now need to micro our socks off, it just means that we should not be so chop-happy. When you do not actively aim for overflow I find that in my games I would rarely see overflow anyway. With maybe a slight adjustment in playingstyle and a little more care we should be fine.

[Shurdus]

Originally Posted by dalamb

What's "MM"?

micromanagement, the managing of resources on the smallest scale, that is on a tile by tile basis (in the case of hammers).

[Bei1052]

I downloaded it and tried to play it with Carter's Earth map. It didn't work, so I just system restored back to before I downloaded it :'(

Maybe it'll work for someone else, though.

[Dom Pedro II]

Originally Posted by EmperorFool

Which ones? Graphics like the reflective water or round minimap, or are you talking about functional UI changes?

Specifically I mean the spin boxes, and the drag and drop functionality.

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by dalamb

Without something like this, the power of buildings that generate would be reduced. I guess some people would prefer the one, other people the other.

I agree, but wouldn't it be wiser to just find a way to remove those esp buildings from the game? As it is, those 4 esp buildings are the easiest way to gain 44 (I think that's how much) culture. (+2+4+8+8)*2. Then assigning spies means they are effectively artists but without polluting the genepool. So you can get great engineers or great scientists etc. far more easily. Just everything about the No Espionage mode is broken while esp points are turned into culture.

Solution would be to remove spy specialists, remove buildings like the security beureau especially, since it serves no purpose in a No Espionage game, remove the Intelligence Agency, maybe reduce the cost of the jail if it is deemed to be too weak without the esp bonus, and leave the courthouse alone.

Originally Posted by Shurdus

So basically the new patch does indeed introduce at the very least one bug that should be solvable with a new unofficial patch.

I still think that the MM implications are not that bad though. If you time your builds and chops carefully you would not get that much overflow anyway. This does not mean that we now need to micro our socks off, it just means that we should not be so chop-happy. When you do not actively aim for overflow I find that in my games I would rarely see overflow anyway. With maybe a slight adjustment in playingstyle and a little more care we should be fine.

When whipping a warrior means hammers will be wasted, that's sure MM. MM issues are minimised when players who are good at MM don't have to do much more than players who can't be bothered MM'ing. Now the timing of chops is more critical than before. Staggering chops is almost always going to be the better option now.

[Woody1]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

Just everything about the No Espionage mode is broken while esp points are turned into culture.

Not really. I do agree it results in too much culture, but it's not a game-breaker. It simply means your game emphasizes culture, rather than espionage. Turn off the culture victory condition and the city flips from culture, if it bothers you.

When whipping a warrior means hammers will be wasted, that's sure MM. MM issues are minimised when players who are good at MM don't have to do much more than players who can't be bothered MM'ing. Now the timing of chops is more critical than before. Staggering chops is almost always going to be the better option now.

Again, a minor thing. Why would you deliberately time all your chops to finish on the same turn anyway?

If I understand the new patch correctly, you still get a bit of overflow, which should be okay for almost all situations except those which you time multiple chops to end on the same turn. Or am I confusing the hammer overflow with the gold overflow?

I have no issue with the overflow being addressed in an unofficial patch. I don't think the "no espionage" thing should be touched. Clarification: if there are random events that trigger epionage points in a no-espionage game, those should be fixed.

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by Woody1

Not really. I do agree it results in too much culture, but it's not a game-breaker. It simply means your game emphasizes culture, rather than espionage. Turn off the culture victory condition and the city flips from culture, if it bothers you.

It also means it's easier to get great engineers.

Ok, it might not break the game as such, but it makes it so drastically different to what one would expect, that it might as well be called broken. The fact that you have to turn off cultural victories just to make it playable is a good indicator of this. And removing culture flips from the game, which IMO are a pretty important part of the game, is not acceptable.

Again, a minor thing. Why would you deliberately time all your chops to finish on the same turn anyway?

That's exactly my point. I don't deliberately time my chops to finish at the same time. But if I have 3 workers finish a job simultaneously and I want them to move onto 3 separate adjacent forests and chop, I'm going to have to go out of my way to ensure they don't finish at the same time. That's more MM than before. 3 chops spread out takes more MM and is less wasteful than 3 chops on the same turn.

If I understand the new patch correctly, you still get a bit of overflow, which should be okay for almost all situations except those which you time multiple chops to end on the same turn. Or am I confusing the hammer overflow with the gold overflow?

Unfortunately the change intended by the patch was mucked up. It appears that there is absolutely no gold from overflow anymore - if the overflow hammers exceed the cost of the item, excess hammers are wasted and not turned into gold (though rolo seems to be arguing there are cases where you get a little bit of gold - I have not observed these).

I have no issue with the overflow being addressed in an unofficial patch. I don't think the "no espionage" thing should be touched. Clarification: if there are random events that trigger epionage points in a no-espionage game, those should be fixed.

I agree the No Espionage change would not be suitable for a UP. I just wanted to express my disappointment that nothing was done about it officially - it is unfortunately unclear what the best way is to fix it because so little has been done about it.

[ruff_hi]

I think people were complaining about all their improvements being blown up. Thus the 'No EP' option. It would have been easier to just put in an option that gimped what you can do with EPs (no sabotage, etc).

[NHJ BV]

It's probably worth mentioning that the Steam version now has the patch available, and that since some time, Steam now has the option of disabling automatic patching. So if you have the Steam version of BTS and don't want to patch, turn it off under the properties of the game.

[Darkshadows]

I ticked the box for no auto updates and it still tries to update.

[Gurra09]

Does anybody know if there are any XML changes in the 3.19 patch?

[Shurdus]

When I got home I downloaded the patch. While doing this I decided to remove Civ IV complete with the uninstaller and then I removed all traces of it from my HD manually. Now I reinstalled it and applied the new patch. the new oatch said that it updated the game from 3.17 to 1.19... Basically the uninstaller left some trace of the game lingering around because the patch thought I had 3.17 around.

So is this a standalone patch or do we need 3.17 applied? My install was in fact a 3.13 from my civ IV complete DVD. Would you guys reckon everything would be fine or is there a good chance something went wrong?

[Woody1]

Originally Posted by Gurra09

Does anybody know if there are any XML changes in the 3.19 patch?

Yes, there are.

[Lone Wolf]

What are they?