Better Unit Movement and Military Strategy

[Ramesses]

A few days ago, someone gave me the idea that all units should act to some extent like Air Units do now. I want to expand on that idea here.

All ground and naval military units have lots of movement points each turn (a minimum of 20). They can cross a large continent in a few years if they want. However, this raw movement power is impeded by several things: the two main obstacles being fog of war and enemy patrol zones.

Units cannot enter tiles obscured by fog of war. In order to lift the fog, you must send units within range of dark tiles and select the Patrol command. By default, this will illuminate all tiles reachable by 1/10 of the unit's movement power, and your patrolling unit will automatically engage any enemy units that enter the patrol area. Roads and railroads will extend the patrol area.

The patrol radius can be extended to up to half of the unit's movement power, but doing so reduces the unit's defensive power.

When at war, your offensive units' movement will be impeded by enemy patrol zones. To clear a path, you must enter a patrol zone and attack the unit(s) patrolling the area. If you defeat the enemy unit(s), the patrol zone is removed.

This will especially bolster naval combat, encouraging the defense of prime waterways such as the GIUK gap in real life. More importantly, it takes the concept of fog-busting to the next level.

[Naokaukodem]

I acknowledge that gound units to have a range of action is tempting. After all, a Roman emperor killed off barbarians intrusing his territory from one way to the opposite in less than 2 years, witch means two turns in modern era. Not only this idea is tempting, but also would be realistic.

[Ramesses]

By the way, any units that are patrolling become fortified, and forts (or their ancient equivalents) will be used to represent this, much like CivRev.

[Argetnyx]

20 movement!!! What is this in? Tiles? The largest map in civ4 is about the same size as the average map in Civ3, so how accurate is this?

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by Argetnyx

20 movement!!! What is this in? Tiles? The largest map in civ4 is about the same size as the average map in Civ3, so how accurate is this?

I calculated it, and if a fit human can walk about 40 miles in half a day (the other half spent resting), and the circumference of Earth is almost 25,000 miles, then they can travel about 60% of the way around the Earth along the equator (assuming there are no obstacles or harsh conditions) in one year. Therefore, on a Huge map, the movement of a unit should be 60 tiles... on a road... with Engineering. Without that, they should only be able to cover a third of the distance (by Civ rules), and that means a unit should have 20 tiles of raw movement power when travelling in familiar, military-guarded lands.

[cardgame]

Originally Posted by Ramesses

I calculated it, and if a fit human can walk about 40 miles in half a day (the other half spent resting), and the circumference of Earth is almost 25,000 miles, then they can travel about 60% of the way around the Earth along the equator (assuming there are no obstacles or harsh conditions) in one year. Therefore, on a Huge map, the movement of a unit should be 60 tiles... on a road... with Engineering. Without that, they should only be able to cover a third of the distance (by Civ rules), and that means a unit should have 20 tiles of raw movement power when travelling in familiar, military-guarded lands.

...



this movement thing would really ---- up the game for me. I'd never play it.

BTW: Quick speed, 4000 BC start. how many yrs is that per turn now? and how far is that? right that's what i thought

whole world explored in a couple turns =

Spoiler:

MAJOR TURN OFF

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by cardgame

...



this movement thing would really ---- up the game for me. I'd never play it.

BTW: Quick speed, 4000 BC start. how many yrs is that per turn now? and how far is that? right that's what i thought

whole world explored in a couple turns =

Spoiler:

MAJOR TURN OFF

You're not understanding something, however.

Your units are incapable of moving anywhere that is shrouded by fog of war. Therefore, you must first set up sentries to create paths between places where you want to go. And sentries cannot be sent anywhere that has not been explored before, nor can they explore the land for you. Only scouts can explore the land beyond your cultural borders. And scouts do not gather information by moving around normally. Rather, they can only perform missions from a tile under your control (through military or culture) on tiles within a certain radius (like planes).

So... to recap:

Have scouts perform missions from tiles under your control to reveal land.
Have soldiers stake out on revealed land to keep it under your control.
Your units can move with little restriction, but only through land under your control.

[cardgame]

Ah.

Hm... intriguing. I'd have to test it out and get the hang of it I think before making any further condemnings

[Argetnyx]

And how many tiles is the huge map? In Civ3, the standard map is 100x100, and the huge map is 160x160. The limit (if modded) is 362x362.

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by Argetnyx

And how many tiles is the huge map? In Civ3, the standard map is 100x100, and the huge map is 160x160. The limit (if modded) is 362x362.

Well in Civ 4, the huge map is 104 plots wide and 64 plots tall. Again, that means a unit can travel anywhere in the world very quickly, but only in places under your control.

I should actually say any friendly territory, because when you're on good terms with a leader, you can move units into regions being patrolled by their units.

[Argetnyx]

That's way too fast...

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by Argetnyx

That's way too fast...

Unit movement is fast. Making paths for those units to travel on is slow. It all balances out.

When you move a unit, you can only move it in territory under your or a friendly leader's control (friendly meaning you have some kind of Open Borders agreement with them). In general, units can pop anywhere in your empire in 1 or 2 turns; but outside of your empire, where and how they can travel is very limited. Pretty much the only way you can make paths to places outside of your empire for your units is by making a chain of military patrol zones connecting your empire to someplace else.

Not only that, but patrol zones take a couple years each to set up, meaning your units, with all their movement power, must wait for many years before they can get to where they need to go. Not only that, but setting up military watches costs maintainence, so you can't just create a network between all the empires. Thus to avoid overspending, you'll actually have to frequently "disconnect" your connection to one location in order to establish a new connection with another location.

Now once you reach the late game (Industrial onward), most of the world will probably be settled, so your units can just pop between friendly empires with no hassle. This, I believe, is good, because once you've reached this point in the game, exploration is no longer an issue, and restrictions on movement are nothing more than a hassle.

[Valivator]

This would make the game a lot more interesting, but i think it best for a mod, because a lot of people ( me inlcluded) would hate the micromanagment.

O, and i applaud your patience in explaining the same thing many times over. I would have lost my temper by now.

[cardgame]

Originally Posted by Valivator

This would make the game a lot more interesting, but i think it best for a mod, because a lot of people ( me inlcluded) would hate the micromanagment.

I'd like to give it a shot though

[Argetnyx]

But how do you 'explore'? Before paths are made, your units can go nowhere. This would be very inaccurate and annoying.

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by Argetnyx

But how do you 'explore'? Before paths are made, your units can go nowhere. This would be very inaccurate and annoying.

You would move a scout near an unexplored region, and have him perform an exploration mission (which ends its turn). On the next turn, all unexplored tiles within a nearby radius are uncovered. Then you can move him and explore further.

[MosheLevi]

20 tile movement is WAY TOO much.

Even the current 10 tile movement with railroad is too much because it allows defenders to attack attackers from nowhere.

That is basically the problem with fast movement – you cannot anticipate enemy attacks.

I agree that CIV 4 has room left for combat improvement but the problem is NOT only with the slow movement.
The problem is with having huge single SoD that can only be countered by an equal or larger SoD.

If CIV 4/5 plays out like chess where each player has several stacks and they both try to outmaneuver each other’s forces, then the game will be more strategic combat wise.

20 tile movement will only make it worse because players would not be able to see each other’s forces.

[Argetnyx]

I am surprised to say that I agree with Moshe, the same problems with warfare in civ4 are present in Civ3. SoD's that are only defeated by other SoD's or carpet bombing (many bombers).

I like the chess idea; outmaneuver the enemy, but instead of kings there are cities as the goals.

[Ramesses]

Originally Posted by MosheLevi

20 tile movement is WAY TOO much.

Even the current 10 tile movement with railroad is too much because it allows defenders to attack attackers from nowhere.

That is basically the problem with fast movement – you cannot anticipate enemy attacks.

I agree that CIV 4 has room left for combat improvement but the problem is NOT only with the slow movement.
The problem is with having huge single SoD that can only be countered by an equal or larger SoD.

If CIV 4/5 plays out like chess where each player has several stacks and they both try to outmaneuver each other’s forces, then the game will be more strategic combat wise.

20 tile movement will only make it worse because players would not be able to see each other’s forces.

Okay, you still don't understand. Let me try again.

Yes, military units have lots of movement power, but when defending yourself against enemy attack, you set up patrol zones (the very same that make paths) to block enemy units. Fortified military units automatically attack any enemy units which get within range (while retaining defensive bonuses). By setting up a series of patrol zones along the war front, you can impede enemy progress.

When attacking, the decision no longer becomes about maneuvering around enemies, but instead choosing the best place to penetrate their front. You can send out spies and stuff to scout out your enemies' defenses, then once you've figured out the enemy's weak point, you can send your soldiers on the attack. If you can overwhelm the defending soldiers, your forces will have a way in.

It's very strategic. Maintain a defense, scout your opponent, attack their weak point.

[Argetnyx]

Those patrol zones sound too tactical. It is already encompassed in the 'fortify' action.