Highest difficulty where AI doesn't win

philip101 · Jul 10, 2009, 11:12 AM

So, I played an interesting game the other day. I chose all random settings on a quick standard size game on Monarch, and I wound up with Cyrus on an isolated continent. All other Civs were on the one other continent giving me nowhere to expand and no one to trade with. As you can imagine, being Cyrus with five cities made it quite difficult to get a space win, and I launched the ship at 2041 (on vanilla). What really surprised me though was that none of the other AI's beat me to it. When I finally came into contact with the others (lol?), they were all pretty peaceful, and both Elizabeth and Mansa were far behind me in techs. If the game had made it to 2050 (9 more turns on quick), it would have been decided by score.

So basically my question is, what is the highest you guys have seen a game where none of the AI manages to win before time runs out?

peppe1 · Jul 10, 2009, 12:24 PM

I never played Vanilla, but I think i read that the AI isn't very good in it.

In BTS i've only played Noble - Monarch, but the AI will go for Culture and Space Victories in a reasonable time. And techs ok on Monarch. I don't think 5 cities will out tech it on Monarch. I've never seen a domination victory as usually that means they went through me and I was defeated or stopped their push. Culture, the AI can win before 2000.

There is a Better AI mod for BTS, and I think the other versions. In BTS the Better AI mod tightens up the Culture victory to time that last city better with the others much better. I remember some Noble games where it was challenging for Space Victory before the 100 turns warning as well (1900's).

blitzkrieg1980 · Jul 10, 2009, 12:32 PM

Yeah, Isolated start on Monarch with no real economic traits (FIN/PHI/ORG) and you won't be that far ahead in techs on BTS. Unless you're an emperor level player playing monarch, you'd probably be at tech parity.

Ignorant Teacher · Jul 10, 2009, 05:53 PM

I don't know about Vanilla, but in BTS the AI might even win but will take a looooooong time to do so up to Emperor. I normally play a game every other day and there has been only once the AI actually won. And it was a diplomatic victory of huge Shaka with two vassals vs Gandhi, who built the UN. (When it's culture we find a way to deal with it

) Never really seen them winning space or militarily. (Except when I tried to play King of the Hill 2

) And I'm a lousy player.

Just finished a space win in 1900 where the AIs didn't even have all the techs to build the ship...

oyzar · Jul 11, 2009, 05:49 AM

Time victories are possible on all difficulties, but on the higher diffs(immortal/deity) you need to hinder the AI quite a lot to get there...

futurehermit · Jul 11, 2009, 08:34 AM

I have had many a monarch game on BTS where I felt strongly that no AI would win even if I left it til 2050 and didn't intervene.

The AI will generally only win by culture or space. In order to win, the AI needs:

1) Room to expand to a large enough empire
2) Traits and/or good quality land to keep from crashing economy (see agg leaders...)
3) Trading partners (see Toku...)
4) Peace (they need to avoid war, generally)

ONE TIME only, playing a pangaea-style fractal map, I was in a situation where the game was coming down to either: 1) I attack Shaka and win...he was very powerful; or 2) Shaka wins a domination victory by wiping out HC--the only remaining AI that was not already Shaka's vassal. Shaka and I had been on friendly terms (I always try to buddy up to him if I can), but meanwhile he had been soaking up vassals like crazy...That was an emperor game though...

In general though, the AI is terrible at pursuing domination.

TheMeInTeam · Jul 11, 2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by futurehermit

I have had many a monarch game on BTS where I felt strongly that no AI would win even if I left it til 2050 and didn't intervene.

The AI will generally only win by culture or space. In order to win, the AI needs:

1) Room to expand to a large enough empire
2) Traits and/or good quality land to keep from crashing economy (see agg leaders...)
3) Trading partners (see Toku...)
4) Peace (they need to avoid war, generally)

ONE TIME only, playing a pangaea-style fractal map, I was in a situation where the game was coming down to either: 1) I attack Shaka and win...he was very powerful; or 2) Shaka wins a domination victory by wiping out HC--the only remaining AI that was not already Shaka's vassal. Shaka and I had been on friendly terms (I always try to buddy up to him if I can), but meanwhile he had been soaking up vassals like crazy...That was an emperor game though...

In general though, the AI is terrible at pursuing domination.

On emp+ the shaka types are frequently UN threats however, due to collecting vassals.

miked1991 · Jul 11, 2009, 12:51 PM

Why is it the only ever victory conditions I see the AI go for are either Space or Diplomatic. They just tech their way through to space every time! The UN or AP win only comes if I get put into the vote against the guy who built it, and I've sometimes been at risk due to my poor diplo, only once or twice has a guy with lots of vassals threatened me.

Why do I never see an AI even get close to culture? Not once I've seen it even attempted!

r_rolo1 · Jul 11, 2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked1991

Why is it the only ever victory conditions I see the AI go for are either Space or Diplomatic. They just tech their way through to space every time! The UN or AP win only comes if I get put into the vote against the guy who built it, and I've sometimes been at risk due to my poor diplo, only once or twice has a guy with lots of vassals threatened me.

Why do I never see an AI even get close to culture? Not once I've seen it even attempted!

Do you have BtS?

miked1991 · Jul 11, 2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r_rolo1

Do you have BtS?

Yup I play Bts with the most recent patch. The only mod I use is BUG, have never tried the Better AI mod or anything else.

bestbrian · Jul 11, 2009, 06:56 PM

The AI really can't do Conq/Dom, at least not on Large/Huge maps (only ones I play). They CONSTANTLY will tech to Space, even when facing a military threat. I had a situation once where Vicky was becoming a runaway AI on the other side of the continent. I had to fight and subjugate all the Civs between me and her; the whole time she had a tech lead on me. By the time I reached her borders and was in position to lay her low, I was attacking with Rifles/Cavs/Cannons; she was defending with Knights/Longbows. Why? Because even though she had teched through Assembly Line, she never saw the need for Rifles (which also would've unlocked her UU).

I've heard BetterAI does a, well, better job, but I've yet to see it.

Frankly, the only victory conditions the AI can hope to get are Diplo/Culture, and only if the Human is asleep at the switch, or playing significantly above skill level.

wickedcherub · Jul 11, 2009, 08:35 PM

I've had to step in and stop the AI winning for my wife on Prince and Noble, mostly via nukes.

Ah crap I've posted as her again.

r_rolo1 · Jul 12, 2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked1991

Yup I play Bts with the most recent patch. The only mod I use is BUG, have never tried the Better AI mod or anything else.

Then you should be extremly unkucky ( or play a very low level ), because the BtS AI has not one, but 4 coded strategies to win by culture.

Powerslave · Jul 12, 2009, 07:08 AM

I find that the AI usually tries to get time victory, in my games. It will aimlessly flounder about the tech tree (unless we're talking about Mansa Musa, who's a speed demon), and, occasionally, it will build a spaceship part or two, but it's heart really won't be in it. Again, Mansa Musa tends to have more of a direct strategy here. Sometimes I see another leader lazily building SS parts or modernizing its army, but this isn't really the norm.

Once a leader is down and out, he stays down. I've never seen an AI come back from a bad start. If you take one of an AI's three cities in 2000BC, he'll be a gimp for the rest of the game. Guaranteed.

This is on Monarch, though I admit that I'm playing below my ability.

Iranon · Jul 12, 2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked1991

Why do I never see an AI even get close to culture? Not once I've seen it even attempted!

Do you tend to hog wonders/religions? My experience is that culture is an earlier threat than space unless I turn my 'oh, shiny!' factor up to eleven.

Meatbuster · Jul 12, 2009, 11:31 AM

In a recent Monarch game where I launched in the 1940's, I already saw Kublai going for the culture win since the 1400's so around 1800's I put 15 spies on his #3 city and blew up his monument, 3 monasteries (can't be rebuilt haha), library and mandir/mosque/synagogue ... plus started a riot and converted him to Bureaucracy from Free Speech, all on the same turn. Sounds like a terrorist attack, but it had to be done. His two other cities did reach legendary before my space launch. Take that, KK!

After that terrorist attack there was a lot more spying against me and they kept destroying my spaceship parts as they were being built, as well as my only source of aluminum to slow me down. I couldn't believe my eyes.

Meanwhile, Shaka had vassalized the entire other continent but unfortunately only managed to reach 45%+ land mass and population during my launch.

Still I am impressed that the AI is going to some length to win this time. In ways other than Space.

Black Mech · Jul 12, 2009, 07:01 PM

Playing on noble just had a match where i was playing as bismark and had shaka running around doing wars for me while i built up my economy to win(space race so was supposed to be a mostly boring match) but then i checked one turn in the trade screen and it had under the declare war on someone list "I wish to win the game now thank you"(no joke it actually said that

). So lets just say after a century and a half of warfare(and him losing alot of his vassels and half his country) he is no longer in a position to win anymore but just incase the stack of infantry are at the boarder now

So yes the ai in BTS most definitly will try to win even at the lower levels.

Pindrus · Jul 13, 2009, 09:41 AM

While it may not technically be "winning," AI's can definitely cause the human player to lose well before approaching their own victory. Whether I've played the diplo situation badly or just end up in a bad position, I've definitely been declared on when I'm fairly unprepared, and sometimes even dog-piled by bribed/opportunistic AI's. I rarely play those games out after my defense is broken and I start to lose cities. It would probably be possible to bribe for peace at some point before being wiped out, but I count those games a loss. I'm usually playing on Immortal.

Also, for some reason I think it would sometimes be fun to play as someone's vassal and find myself wishing this had been enabled by the game. Maybe it would be too easy to vassal yourself to another AI to prevent them from attacking while a clever human player went on for a culture victory or something, but it would also be fun to try and grow out of the vassal limits.

blitzkrieg1980 · Jul 13, 2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pindrus

Also, for some reason I think it would sometimes be fun to play as someone's vassal and find myself wishing this had been enabled by the game. Maybe it would be too easy to vassal yourself to another AI to prevent them from attacking while a clever human player went on for a culture victory or something, but it would also be fun to try and grow out of the vassal limits.

I'd like to see the human be able to be a vassal. I don't think easy vassal -> culture victory is a valid reason to keep the option out of the game. They could require an extraordinary amount of good relations, a certain required difference in # of troops (yours being lower of course), and AI attitudes. After all, the AI can win a Diplo, Culture, or Space Race as a vassal and has almost happened to me a couple times. Darius was very close to a culture victory as Shaka's capitulate.

But I think it would be too easy to abuse such a system as well. There would have to be too much overhaul to the game framework. Maybe in Civ5 we'll see a human vassal option.

Freezer-TPF- · Jul 13, 2009, 10:27 AM

It would be amusing to have your AI master demand all your resources and tell you what to research. I'm not sure that'd be much fun, though.

Jul 10, 2009, 11:12 AM	#1
philip101 Chieftain Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3	Highest difficulty where AI doesn't win So, I played an interesting game the other day. I chose all random settings on a quick standard size game on Monarch, and I wound up with Cyrus on an isolated continent. All other Civs were on the one other continent giving me nowhere to expand and no one to trade with. As you can imagine, being Cyrus with five cities made it quite difficult to get a space win, and I launched the ship at 2041 (on vanilla). What really surprised me though was that none of the other AI's beat me to it. When I finally came into contact with the others (lol?), they were all pretty peaceful, and both Elizabeth and Mansa were far behind me in techs. If the game had made it to 2050 (9 more turns on quick), it would have been decided by score. So basically my question is, what is the highest you guys have seen a game where none of the AI manages to win before time runs out?

Jul 10, 2009, 05:53 PM	#4
Ignorant Teacher Emperor Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,467	I don't know about Vanilla, but in BTS the AI might even win but will take a looooooong time to do so up to Emperor. I normally play a game every other day and there has been only once the AI actually won. And it was a diplomatic victory of huge Shaka with two vassals vs Gandhi, who built the UN. (When it's culture we find a way to deal with it ) Never really seen them winning space or militarily. (Except when I tried to play King of the Hill 2 ) And I'm a lousy player. Just finished a space win in 1900 where the AIs didn't even have all the techs to build the ship... __________________ no more sigs

Jul 11, 2009, 08:34 AM	#6
futurehermit Deity Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,707	I have had many a monarch game on BTS where I felt strongly that no AI would win even if I left it til 2050 and didn't intervene. The AI will generally only win by culture or space. In order to win, the AI needs: 1) Room to expand to a large enough empire 2) Traits and/or good quality land to keep from crashing economy (see agg leaders...) 3) Trading partners (see Toku...) 4) Peace (they need to avoid war, generally) ONE TIME only, playing a pangaea-style fractal map, I was in a situation where the game was coming down to either: 1) I attack Shaka and win...he was very powerful; or 2) Shaka wins a domination victory by wiping out HC--the only remaining AI that was not already Shaka's vassal. Shaka and I had been on friendly terms (I always try to buddy up to him if I can), but meanwhile he had been soaking up vassals like crazy...That was an emperor game though... In general though, the AI is terrible at pursuing domination. __________________ Land is power. Land is power. Land is power. Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 1 Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 2

Jul 11, 2009, 06:56 PM	#11
bestbrian Just this guy, ya know? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 3,321	The AI really can't do Conq/Dom, at least not on Large/Huge maps (only ones I play). They CONSTANTLY will tech to Space, even when facing a military threat. I had a situation once where Vicky was becoming a runaway AI on the other side of the continent. I had to fight and subjugate all the Civs between me and her; the whole time she had a tech lead on me. By the time I reached her borders and was in position to lay her low, I was attacking with Rifles/Cavs/Cannons; she was defending with Knights/Longbows. Why? Because even though she had teched through Assembly Line, she never saw the need for Rifles (which also would've unlocked her UU). I've heard BetterAI does a, well, better job, but I've yet to see it. Frankly, the only victory conditions the AI can hope to get are Diplo/Culture, and only if the Human is asleep at the switch, or playing significantly above skill level. __________________ PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY, OR TOKUGAWA WITH RIFLES AND IN YOUR WAY WHEN THE TOUGH GET GOING, THE WEAK GET SCREWED Economic Left/Right: 1.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.18

Jul 12, 2009, 07:08 AM	#14
Powerslave Prince Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, USA Posts: 387	I find that the AI usually tries to get time victory, in my games. It will aimlessly flounder about the tech tree (unless we're talking about Mansa Musa, who's a speed demon), and, occasionally, it will build a spaceship part or two, but it's heart really won't be in it. Again, Mansa Musa tends to have more of a direct strategy here. Sometimes I see another leader lazily building SS parts or modernizing its army, but this isn't really the norm. Once a leader is down and out, he stays down. I've never seen an AI come back from a bad start. If you take one of an AI's three cities in 2000BC, he'll be a gimp for the rest of the game. Guaranteed. This is on Monarch, though I admit that I'm playing below my ability. Last edited by Powerslave; Jul 12, 2009 at 07:10 AM. Reason: added difficulty level

Jul 10, 2009, 12:24 PM	#2
peppe1 Warlord Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 221	I never played Vanilla, but I think i read that the AI isn't very good in it. In BTS i've only played Noble - Monarch, but the AI will go for Culture and Space Victories in a reasonable time. And techs ok on Monarch. I don't think 5 cities will out tech it on Monarch. I've never seen a domination victory as usually that means they went through me and I was defeated or stopped their push. Culture, the AI can win before 2000. There is a Better AI mod for BTS, and I think the other versions. In BTS the Better AI mod tightens up the Culture victory to time that last city better with the others much better. I remember some Noble games where it was challenging for Space Victory before the 100 turns warning as well (1900's).

Jul 10, 2009, 12:32 PM	#3
blitzkrieg1980 Watch for it... Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 4,401	Yeah, Isolated start on Monarch with no real economic traits (FIN/PHI/ORG) and you won't be that far ahead in techs on BTS. Unless you're an emperor level player playing monarch, you'd probably be at tech parity. __________________ "The prime time of your life. Now. Live it." -Daft Punk I used to give a crap about politics. Then I realized it's all crap. Politics is entertainment for educated folk. Politicians are cults of personality for us to focus our attention on. History is studied, quoted, and spoken at length of, yet very rarely learned from. Nevermind.

Jul 11, 2009, 05:49 AM	#5
oyzar Have quit civ/forums Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 6,601	Time victories are possible on all difficulties, but on the higher diffs(immortal/deity) you need to hinder the AI quite a lot to get there...

Jul 11, 2009, 12:51 PM	#8
miked1991 Warlord Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 184	Why is it the only ever victory conditions I see the AI go for are either Space or Diplomatic. They just tech their way through to space every time! The UN or AP win only comes if I get put into the vote against the guy who built it, and I've sometimes been at risk due to my poor diplo, only once or twice has a guy with lots of vassals threatened me. Why do I never see an AI even get close to culture? Not once I've seen it even attempted!

Jul 11, 2009, 08:35 PM	#12
wickedcherub war! what is it good for? Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 63	I've had to step in and stop the AI winning for my wife on Prince and Noble, mostly via nukes. Ah crap I've posted as her again.

Jul 12, 2009, 11:31 AM	#16
Meatbuster formerly Robo Kai Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 2,302	In a recent Monarch game where I launched in the 1940's, I already saw Kublai going for the culture win since the 1400's so around 1800's I put 15 spies on his #3 city and blew up his monument, 3 monasteries (can't be rebuilt haha), library and mandir/mosque/synagogue ... plus started a riot and converted him to Bureaucracy from Free Speech, all on the same turn. Sounds like a terrorist attack, but it had to be done. His two other cities did reach legendary before my space launch. Take that, KK! After that terrorist attack there was a lot more spying against me and they kept destroying my spaceship parts as they were being built, as well as my only source of aluminum to slow me down. I couldn't believe my eyes. Meanwhile, Shaka had vassalized the entire other continent but unfortunately only managed to reach 45%+ land mass and population during my launch. Still I am impressed that the AI is going to some length to win this time. In ways other than Space. Last edited by Meatbuster; Jul 12, 2009 at 11:41 AM.

Jul 12, 2009, 07:01 PM	#17
Black Mech Nuked Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 92	Playing on noble just had a match where i was playing as bismark and had shaka running around doing wars for me while i built up my economy to win(space race so was supposed to be a mostly boring match) but then i checked one turn in the trade screen and it had under the declare war on someone list "I wish to win the game now thank you"(no joke it actually said that). So lets just say after a century and a half of warfare(and him losing alot of his vassels and half his country) he is no longer in a position to win anymore but just incase the stack of infantry are at the boarder now So yes the ai in BTS most definitly will try to win even at the lower levels. __________________ That's gotta hurt.

Jul 13, 2009, 09:41 AM	#18
Pindrus Warlord Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 221	While it may not technically be "winning," AI's can definitely cause the human player to lose well before approaching their own victory. Whether I've played the diplo situation badly or just end up in a bad position, I've definitely been declared on when I'm fairly unprepared, and sometimes even dog-piled by bribed/opportunistic AI's. I rarely play those games out after my defense is broken and I start to lose cities. It would probably be possible to bribe for peace at some point before being wiped out, but I count those games a loss. I'm usually playing on Immortal. Also, for some reason I think it would sometimes be fun to play as someone's vassal and find myself wishing this had been enabled by the game. Maybe it would be too easy to vassal yourself to another AI to prevent them from attacking while a clever human player went on for a culture victory or something, but it would also be fun to try and grow out of the vassal limits. __________________ 30 Posts needed for an avatar! Lurkers of the world unite in protest.

Jul 13, 2009, 10:27 AM	#20
Freezer-TPF- Chieftain Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 51	It would be amusing to have your AI master demand all your resources and tell you what to research. I'm not sure that'd be much fun, though.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What's the highest difficulty level you can win on at least 90% of the time?	ScaryRussian	Civ4 - General Discussions	91	Apr 14, 2009 11:46 AM
What is the highest difficulty level you ever WIN ?	Naokaukodem	Civ4 - General Discussions	47	Mar 09, 2008 03:58 PM
Highest Difficulty w/o Tech Trading?	alcaras	Civ4 - Strategy & Tips	4	Aug 20, 2007 06:23 AM
What is the highest difficulty level you have won? (With Poll)	CliftonBazaar	Civ4 - General Discussions	17	Feb 06, 2007 03:07 PM
Real game at highest difficulty levels?	remconius	Civ4 - General Discussions	7	Jul 25, 2005 08:47 AM

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. This site is copyright © Civilization Fanatics' Center.
Support CFC: Amazon.com \| Amazon UK \| Amazon DE \| Amazon CA \| Amazon FR