Help with early game diplomacy

[Johnty]

I was wondering if someone could give me some insight into how to conduct early game diplomacy?


Various threads have mentioned the need to make a nearby civ your 'ally' (not an actual alliance - more like "be nice and keep them onside) early on.


Others have said that certain types of civ should be knocked down to size early on.


While the one thing I've taken from reading these forums is that there are no hard-and-fast rules and that everything has to depend on the circumstances you find yourself in, I wondered if there are some general principles I should be following?


Is the 'ally' idea right? In what circumstances? Is there particular kind/size of civ I should avoid doing this with?


Is the attack idea right? In what circumstances? Is there a particular kind/size of civ I should avoid doing this with.


Other insights greatly appreciated.

[Maestro_Innit]

No hard and fast rule.

If you want a peaceful start then try to keep everyone happy. If you want to take out one neighbour then try to keep your other neighbour on side, or preferably just turn them against your target.

Personally I tend not to worry too much about diplo in most games since keeping a high power reading and out-teching the AI is good enough. If anyone starts on you then you just cruch them like scum

[Silu]

It mostly depends on the actual Civ and leader in question. With certain leaders, such as Shaka, Genghis or Monty, it's no use trying to befriend them as 1) they will attack you anyway 2) they focus on military, so you won't benefit from their techs as much. On the other hand, easy-to-please leaders that tend to tech more, such as Mansa Musa or Hatty are good friends to get, and easy to knock down if they are getting too powerful.

In the early game religion choices make a huge difference in diplomacy. Try to adopt the religion of your neighbors, or try to not adopt any religion if you, say, have 3 neighbors with different religions. Again, some leaders think this is a bigger deal than others.

Also if you notice an AI Civ getting behind in score, accept all requests to bash them, including declaring war, even if you are not prepared to actually fight. Weak Civs already engaged in a war cannot harm you anyway. Don't try to be everybody's friend.

[Lansky]

If you can get at least 6 cities you can play friendly and bide your time to strike later.

If you cannot get at least 6 cities you should plan to attack early. Axes, or slightly later catapults and/or elephants are good times.

In time you will learn which leaders are easier to please than others. For example Gilgamesh and Monty lean very heavily to war, but are also very easy to please. Monty has a huge bonus for shared religion, while Gilga has an early and easy favorite civic - Hereditary Rule. Both are easy to get to Friendly if you choose to and even at pleased will likely attack a heathen first. Other leaders like Genghis and Shaka are quite difficult comparativley. Their religion modifier grows a bit slower and in order to get friendly early you will likely have to be their ally in a war for a period of time and give into a demand or two. All of these leaders have a high "unit build prob", which simply means when given the chance even during peace time they are much more likely to choose another military unit as opposed to a shiny temple, thus making them harder to conquer - by no means impossible however as this tendency also will eventually make them a bit slower on teching... usually.

Such nuances are sadly best learned the hard way as studying every leaders' particular diplomacy settings is, at least to me, less fun than losing.

[Tatran]

Originally Posted by Lansky

Monty has a huge bonus for shared religion...

You're calling +3/+4 for sharing the same religion huge?

[madscientist]

Rules for good early diplomacy

1) Accept the war-mongers Skaka/Genghis/Monty are useless to befriend. You can probably add Tokugawa in there

2) Open Borders ASAP

3) Adopt the most popular religion or the one of the biggest Zealot. Spread that religion to everyone you want to befriend.

4) Give in to all and every demand.

5) Make trades for techs that arelopsided to teh AI.

6) Trade resources. It takes a long time but it helps.

7) Keep a treasury handy to pay for those beneficial Diplomatic random events.

8) Pay attention to favorite civics and adopt them if possible.

9) Consider going to war to help your friends.

10) Try and avoid VERY close borders.

My most recent RPC-TNG in my signature is a good example of playing the diplomatic game.

[blitzkrieg1980]

If neighbor is Shaka/Toku/Monty/Genghis, just beef up an early rush (if they are close enough) and take them down early.

If there is plenty of room to expand, do so peacefully and follow what MadScientist says about building a good relationship.

[Lansky]

Originally Posted by Tatran

You're calling +3/+4 for sharing the same religion huge?

Well I suppose I have "misremembered"

Thought Monty was +5.

[blitzkrieg1980]

It's still not enough to deter Monty, unless you make trouble for him by bribing others into DoW on him.

[Lansky]

Monty is a bastard that few AI's like and he in turn likes few AI's. Get almost anyone in a different religion than him and he'll almost certainly attack them first. He's also much more likely than many warmongers to found a religion and when he does he commonly does an amazing job spreading it around. For example in Duckweed's survival among warmonger's thread Monty was by far the easiest one to duck out of the way of. In my game he founded one of the earlier religions and almost immediately declared on Alex who was sharing a larger border and adopted a different religion. I'm not saying Monty is a good neighbor, he is not. So I guess I'm just bored at work and pointing out that he is an easier warmonger to avoid confrontation with in many situations.

Now if you don't feel like adopting his religion you're gonna get a lot of units shoved down your throat. Same is true if he is your only neighbor. Diplo bonuses for religion, trade, and the open borders and resources bonuses take far too long to stack up in this case.

[blitzkrieg1980]

Now if you don't feel like adopting his religion you're gonna get a lot of units shoved down your throat.

I gotta admit, I rarely see Monty founding religions in my games. He definitely has, but in those cases, he has rarely spread them far and wide. If I meet him first or second in my games, you can bet that I'll rush him. I'm not gambling on him attacking another civ. Besides, gimme that 2nd capital!

[JTMacc99]

Originally Posted by blitzkrieg1980

It's still not enough to deter Monty, unless you make trouble for him by bribing others into DoW on him.

If you want peace with him, I'd say it's required. The problem is, it is not a guarantee. You need to stack on a bunch of other stuff like good trades, giving in to his requests, and joining him in wars and he'll STILL declare on you at pleased. Best bet to maintain a peaceful border with him is to keep him at pleased and make sure he's always got somebody else to attack. If he likes you, but has nothing better to do with all those troops, he'll come after you regardless of being brothers in faith.

Another problem with him is that you can't really share his favorite civic with him (police state) until really late.

[Fluxx]

Some leaders (especially warmongers), should be kept at a higher dip then other civs have relations with them.
Don't overdo it though, since trading with a Warmonger will most often mean big drop in relations with other civs.
As long as you got a decent power rating, and cautious-pleased with them, there is a good chance they will dow someone else.

Some civs give +6-8 relations only because you have the same religion, so you have some lenience with those.

Civs like Sitting Bull are pretty much useless to please. They are of absolutely no value till friendly, and the chance of him dowing is non-existent.
Mansa is the other extreme. He will trade you always anything, neither will he declare too. So keeping him at cautious, will still give maximum results. Be wary of cancelling deals with him like open borders. One game he did not speak to me for 100-150 turns afterwards, forcing me into a tech deficit.

Then you got the civs who do not declare at pleased, and start trading techs at that rating. They also are pretty hard to get easy diplo ratings with.
Those civs you should cater the most too. Constant peace, same civics, traderoutes, open borders, mutual struggles, "good" trades, demands etc.
As long as you keep those civs at constant pleased, it will make your game much easier.

[JBossch]

I disagree with opening borders ASAP for reasons discussed in a recent thread on the topic.

Giving in to demands is most often necessary in the early game but each should be considered very carefully. Caving to a war monger will buy 10 turns of peace and can often lead to a DoW if refused, sometimes immediately. However, it can also give demerits for trading with worst enemies eventually. Usually you can get away with trades to AIs' worst enemies through the BCs though. Agreeing to cancel deals is much more grave. I rarely cave to these demands despite the negative diplo. The consequences are very severe as the AI in question will not trade with you for a very long time. In the early game, it is crucial to maximize tech trading partners to get the most mileage out of your monopoly techs.

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by JBossch

I disagree with opening borders ASAP for reasons discussed in a recent thread on the topic.

Giving in to demands is most often necessary in the early game but each should be considered very carefully. Caving to a war monger will buy 10 turns of peace and can often lead to a DoW if refused, sometimes immediately. However, it can also give demerits for trading with worst enemies eventually. Usually you can get away with trades to AIs' worst enemies through the BCs though. Agreeing to cancel deals is much more grave. I rarely cave to these demands despite the negative diplo. The consequences are very severe as the AI in question will not trade with you for a very long time. In the early game, it is crucial to maximize tech trading partners to get the most mileage out of your monopoly techs.

If it looks like an AI has someone you have OB with as a worst enemy, the best course is often preemptively canceling the deal. There is no flat-out penalty for doing that, you just lose the +2 for OB, which you would not have had anyway if you never opened them.

Opening borders is a fairly low-risk deal generally.

[JBossch]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

If it looks like an AI has someone you have OB with as a worst enemy, the best course is often preemptively canceling the deal. There is no flat-out penalty for doing that, you just lose the +2 for OB, which you would not have had anyway if you never opened them.

Opening borders is a fairly low-risk deal generally.

Agreed about canceling OBs if you think you will get a deal cancellation request. My reasons for not signing OBs early is primarily due to the economics rather than diplomacy. The AI will have sailing and exploit your trade routes until you have it or build roads to them.

[CivMcNut]

I've always found it useful to adopt the popular religion that's going around and then try to work towards building strong relations with the nations that are part of your block.

Then focus your war/trade embargo efforts towards those not a part of the religion.

[Maestro_Innit]

Originally Posted by CivMcNut

I've always found it useful to adopt the popular religion that's going around and then try to work towards building strong relations with the nations that are part of your block.

Then focus your war/trade embargo efforts towards those not a part of the religion.

That's a safe bet but somewhat limiting. The thing is that you're more than likely going to be sharing this religion with your immediate neighbours and ultimately they're the ones you need to attack If it's at all possible, it's worth getting the "enemy" religion spread through your lands too and then as you DoW on your neighbours, you switch religions and ultimately switch sides.

Personally, I rarely use a religion since it's just too limiting either way. I just stay secular and kill kill kill

[mirthadir]

While you can't truly make abiding friends with Monty et al, you can use them. Just bribe them to hit the heathen whenever they are bored. This handily places them down the path towards technological backwardness and makes them easy shots for a quick cannon war.