Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

[Psychic_Llamas]

There should be also diplomat - makes defensive pacts with evryone he can. Guy like him will be hard opponent in war
Religious - a crusader type which hate other religion factions, also special religion have special sort of enemies like Salvation vs Corruption, Destruction vs Elven Gods, Ect.
I'm not so good in lore ;o.
Racist - Hate other races, it would looks like: Human racist - Hate humanoids, undeads, elvens.

these are good ideas too

Next thing. Can be there added, to a normal game, whole list of civics from WorldofWarhammer mod ?. It's sad also that i cant choose amount of factions in game. Sometimes map can be really empty, especially on big games.

if you play a 'custom game' from the main menu you can add civilizations to your game so you could have 15 civilizations on a standard map if you really wanted

im not too sure what you mean about civics though

[rocklikeafool]

Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas

im not too sure what you mean about civics though

If I take the meaning right, Breathe means updated civics. We're currently working on a new version, called Warhammer: Heart of Chaos (aka WHoC) here. We're getting closer to the release. The civics will be reworked in WHoC, along with most everything else. Keep coming with the ideas, though. These are all excellent so far.

[Breathe]

Heh thanks

I used wrong word, civics = Civilizations or Factions. For example i can't play Khermi faction ;o. Maybe it will be aviable in custom game ? I will look there

[Psychic_Llamas]

i thought that might be what you meant Breathe

if you are up for some light modding its really very simple to make blocked civilizations playable again. ill try to explain how here:

1. Open up the Civ4CivlizationInfos.xml file in the Warhammer\Assets\XML\Civilizations directory.
2. search for the line <bPlayable>0</bPlayable>
here is an example of what the code will look like:

		<CivilizationInfo>
			<Type>CIVILIZATION_NEHEKHARA</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_NEHEKHARA_DESC</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_NEHEKHARA_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
			<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_NEHEKHARA_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_NEHEKHARA_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_TOMBKINGS</DefaultPlayerColor>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_NEHEKHARA</ArtDefineTag>
			<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_NEHEKHARA</ArtStyleType>
			<UnitArtStyleType>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_NEHEKHARA</UnitArtStyleType>
			<bPlayable>0</bPlayable>
			<bAIPlayable>1</bAIPlayable>
			<Cities>
				<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHEMRI</City>
				<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ZANDRI</City>

i have made the important lines red.

3. you will need to change where it says <bPlayable>0</bPlayable> to <bPlayable>1</bPlayable>.
4. save and start the game. hopefully the civ is now selectable to play

---------------------------------

However, these civs have all been blocked because they are unfinished and not really fun to play yet. but if you want to play khemri do what i expalined above and it should work fine

[Ahriman]

To make it clear, the AI values that I'll mess with are listed here:
http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index....eaderHeadInfos

There should be also diplomat - makes defensive pacts with evryone he can

We can do this to some extent. There is a likeability parameter, and there is a parameter that judges how good relations have to be for them to agree to a defensive pact (though: both players must agree for the pact to be valid, so in some sense it just makes it easier for the human player to get a pact with them).

Religious - a crusader type which hate other religion factions

This can be done here; this is what I meant by Intolerant.

also special religion have special sort of enemies like Salvation vs Corruption, Destruction vs Elven Gods, Ect.

This can't. There is no way to make the AI care differently about different Other religions; its basically binary, either the other guy is My Religion or he is Any Other Religion.
But there are already AI alignment modifiers, so a Salvation leader will already really hate a Corruption one.

Racist - Hate other races, it would looks like: Human racist - Hate humanoids, undeads, elvens.

There isn't really any way to implement this.

Next thing. Can be there added, to a normal game, whole list of civics from WorldofWarhammer mod ?

All the factions will eventually be playable.

[Psychic_Llamas]

I added Goblin Design to the Design thread. some radical changes id like input on.

[orlanth]

I like it, some good stuff in there. Maybe a smaller chance of slave capture for Netters to avoid Gobs taking more slaves than the Druchii/Dawi Zharr. I'm guessing Entangle should have chance to hold one unit in stack rather than an entire nearby stack as posted?

It's definitely good to have unit features that aren't just yet more flat plusses/minuses to Strength - I like having the weak Skirmisher units with good Withdraw chance, this could even be a bit higher like 30%. For units like Snotling Swarm that should be weak in combat but resilient and able to absorb much damage, I'd like to eventually try the mechanic where initial defeat leads to Wounded status before death as posted previously, this could wait for later to implement though.

Cos of their flimsy wings Doom Divers could have some degree of Air Combat or Intercept ability in addition to basic siege stuff. I see there is already a custom animation for Doom Divers! from the Civ3 version that never got off the ground. I wonder how much other stuff is hanging around from this Civ3 mod and if it could be adapted.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165667

BTW when I made the zombie-mod bonusinfos update, I tried to make resource distribution less imbalanced (less chance of having zero of a common resource like Pig within a single continent or large tile radius, less chance of unbalanced local clusters of multiple resources etc) so for Orks it should be possible to have some alternate resources like Pig for Boar Riders, etc. (I think we were trying to have resources be a production bonus rather than absolute all-or-none requirement).

I think the namegen I put in the teamforum could be hooked to units like Gobbo Boss and Shaman as well, so you could get some memorable Boss or Shaman units like Sniksnak Stuntiesmasha or Gralwazza the Toofless

[Psychic_Llamas]

awesome

im not sure if the Civ 3 graphics are usable in Civ 4.

also the name generator for the spellcasters and bosses is a fun idea

[Psychic_Llamas]

added Orcs to overview thread i really should be studying for my exams tomorrow :/

[Humakty]

Go to work !

For orcs, there are two royal guards units, which are national limit units. Is it intended ?

Great work on goblins, they should play all okay. Yay !

[Psychic_Llamas]

sweet

and yeh the 2 royal guards was a typo

so you're ok with the Gobbos having dual gameplay?

also, im not up to scratch with the greenskins lingo, so any name changes you have would be good!

Also, any ideas for UBs?

[Humakty]

The dual gameplay will give goblin play an interesting/unique twist !

In replacement of a Forge : Goblin Dump Pile : "The place were Goblins pile all the stuff they gather, and they don't really want to keep for themselves (they are reflex robbers !). Here one can find most anything he could need, so it is in this place that can be found what passes for scientist to the goblin people : The famed Goblin Tinkerers, who are most notorious for the invention of the Doom Diver and the Snotling Pump Machine"
+15 % hammer, +15 % research, -4 health, +1 happy face, +1 great scientist/great engineer .

Arbitrary proposed values, would need to be balanced toward the other buildings they have access to. I'm all for a somewhat unexpected bonus attribution regarding goblin civilization, after all, Goblin logic is somewhat unexpected.

[Psychic_Llamas]

great idea. added

do you have any ideas for a library UB, and other non-greenskinny buildings like those?

[rocklikeafool]

@P_L
Dude, I really love the dual action Gobbos. And the Orcs, if used right, could kick some serious ass.

Also, maybe something like Scroll Pit or Scroll Cave for the library? Something to imply a dirty hole where magic scrolls or VERY important records are just sort piled & thrown. Stuff too important to be thrown away. But since Greenskins are too lazy for organization, it's just a random pile.

[Ahriman]

some radical changes id like input on.

Radical changes... always sends a shiver up my spine :-)

specialise your core army as Night or Forest Goblins,

Ugh. I don't like it. We have enough variation as it is with 20+ different factions with unique armylists without splitting the existing ones further.

Heck, we have *4* greenskin factions: orks, goblins, hobgoblins, ogres.

I see no real gameplay advantage for this, it seems like needless complexity and onfusion for the players. Orcs are big and strong; goblins are weak and numerous. Some goblin units are forestgoblins, others are nightgoblins.
So for each slot where there are multiple units, pick one and use that. Otherwise its going to be a confusing cluttered mess, and have unnecessarily high art requirements.

(+5% reserch +5% food with Mushrooms).

I see no need for this. Just have mushrooms as a health resource, and if you really want, have a research building UB (elder council replacement?) that gives a small extra bonus with mushrooms.
Don't give it free free in the racial building.
Otherwise, too much randomness: large bonus if you happen to get mushrooms (much larger than for any other resource in the game), no bonus if you don't.

Goblin Dump pile: Replaces Forge. +15 % hammer, +15 % research, -4 health, +1 happy face, +1 great scientist/great engineer

These bonuses are too drastic for such a ubiquitous early game building (-4 health??)
Just make it:
Replaces Forge. +15 % hammer, +15 % research, -1 health
And then give no access to the library building.

I'm all for a somewhat unexpected bonus attribution regarding goblin civilization

I don't understand what this means.

Gobbo Warrior Band: basic Warrior, starts with Goblin Racial promo, +15% city defence (on top of usual)

Why are goblins better city defenders than humans? Is this just to be for balance alone because of the strength penalty? Thats probably reasonable.

Wolf Riders (replaces Ancient Cavalry) same stats, starts with Goblin Racial Promo, +1 first strikes chance (from wolves) (dosnt obsolete) no terrain penatly from forest.

Why are goblins getting *superior* cavalry? That doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe these guys should have a bonus vs melee instead of vs ranged units (the wolves are good vs melee, but arent' as fast and dont' close vs archers as quicky).
First strike chances don't make sense to me here. In this mod we're using first strikes to represent ranged weapons.

Gobbo Boss (UU) Strength 4. Early tech (warfare?) starts with Goblin Racial Promo. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Disciplined promo. +25% vs melee units.

Is this supposed to be a rare leader with a small national limit, or an axeman replacement?
I oppose Discipline on an axeman replacement, it basically means that animosity no longer happens.

River Troll: (replaces Troll) Same as troll. +25% vs Missile Cavalry, +25% vs Ranged units. Amphibious, can travel in coastal water squares, +15% strength in Marsh.

Why does their troll get *5* abilities on top of a regular troll?
Why is it getting missile cavalry and ranged unit bonuses? What is this supposed to represent?
How about:
Strength 7, 1 move, no river crossing penalty, regeneration, +10% strength in marsh.
Still better than a normal troll, but not obscenely so.

Stone Troll: (Second Troll slot) Same as troll. +25% vs Shock cavalry, +25% vs Melee. Double movement in Hills, can move impassable (ie can cross mountains)

Again, way too much.
These guys shouldn't be getting large combat bonuses vs particular unit types; they already have base strength massively higher than other units of their tier (trolls are 7, vs strength 4 units, 5 with bronze).
How about: strength 7, 1 move, regeneration, can cross peaks, +10% hill strength.

I also don't think they need 2 separate trolls, but I can live with it.

Snotling Swarm: Strength 4, no metal weapons, no wartats. 80% withdraw chance, immortal, no war weariness from death.

If they have 2 trolls, they don't need this too. Too many units in the same slot.

Night Gobbo Skirmishers (replace Skirmisher warband) Strength 4. 2 moves. starts with Night Goblin Racial promo.. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs beasts. +20% withdraw chance. -20% city attack, +20% withdrawl, +10% hill strength +25% poison resistance.. Hammer cost: 50.
Night Gobbo Hunters (replaces Hunter troop) Strength 4. 2 moves. starts with Night Goblin Racial promo.. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Can see hidden animals. Can build camp and corral. -30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% withdrawl, +10% hills strength +25% poison resistance.. Hammer cost: 50.

Hunters and skirmishers are the same unit slot, every faction gets one or the other. Pick one, not both.

(Upgrade from Warrior for free)

This seems like it could be a very very dangerous idea, potentially very exploitative for human players.
How would you code this anyway? You'd have to make it into a spell, like Doviello? That seems a bad idea. The AI knows to upgrade troops to get a mixed force, but here it will just instantly upgrade everything to the same type.

(Upgrade from Night Gobbo Mob for free)

Definitely not.
If you like, give some of the leader the Ingenuity trait (halves upgrade costs) or have a UB that reduces upgrade costs in that city.
But not just free upgrades, especially to tier2 units, that is far too large a bonus.

Night Gobbo Fanatics (replaces Pikeman) Strength 10/4, very cheap, dies at the end of combat. +100% vs melee units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons

We can have some nasty fanatics at fanaticism tech, but they shouldn't be in the pikemen slot. I'd just give them a goblin pikeman unit of some kind.
(Though.... strength 10 with metal weapons and +100% vs melee? Seriously?)

Forest Gobbo Netters (replaces Pikeman) Strength 5, no metal, 1 move. +15% vs melee units. +15% vs chariot units. +15% vs shock cavalry units. defeated units captured as slaves. Passes on 1 turn 'Held' promotion when defeated (units trapped in nets). can cast 'Entangle' Spell

Netters don't make sense in a pikemen slot either; that slot is for elite melee. Netters in a Ranger slot should be fine, balanced appropriately.

Stack entangles on a core unit are a bad idea though. Entangling one unit, maybe, but not the whole stack. How big are those nets??

[Ahriman]

On both orks and goblins:

NOTE: MORE UNITS NEED DISCIPLINED!

Completely disagree. If too many units have discipline, then animosity is meaningless.

Discipline was supposed to come primarily from great general warbosses. I'd take it *off* the caster units, and everything else that isn't a hero or a tier3 elite melee.
Otherwise, animosity is never going to happen.
We should be reducing animosity to the point where it is manageable, not slapping disciplined onto everything so that no animosity ever happens.
Not every stack should be disciplined!

Fighting Pit 2 units can challenge each other to provide 1 happy to the city and -100% war wearyness for 5 turns. there is a chance that one of the units dies, and there is another chance that both units get EXP and are damaged.

This is too close to the Bloodbowl Arena. Merge these.

Orc: Racial promo. +10% strength.

This is not a good idea, particularly with Aggressive leaders.
Orc racial promotion shouldn't give any bonus, instead selected orc units just get a city attack bonus.
Orcs aren't just better at everything. They don't have better cavalry, better

And a unit of orks isn't all else equal going to beat every other races units.

It makes them too strong, there is nothing here that balances this out. Basically you are making orks completely superior to nearly every other race in the game.

All the other units in my design were balanced without this.

Black Orcs (Replaces Royal Guard)
Black Orc Spearboyz (Replaces Pikemen)

I don't really like this. Black orks should be the core elite melee, not some pikemen. Orks should not have great pikemen. They *should* be vulnerable to heavy cavalry. Basically, orks should have fantastic city attack, and good melee, so they will be sending in big melee stacks, and defenders should be bombing them with archers and cavalry on their way in, to soften them up.

Orc Boarboyz (replaces Ancient Cavalry) same stats, starts with Orc Racial Promo, no terrain penatly from marsh or forest.
Savage Orc Boarboyz (replaces Lancer) same stats, starts with Orc Racial Promo, no terrain penatly from marsh or forest.

Remove the core withdraw chance on these units.
Orks don't retreat much, and orks shouldn't be getting superior cavalry units.

Orc Boss (UU) Strength 4. Early tech (warfare?) starts with Orc Racial Promo. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Disciplined promo. +25% vs melee units.

As with goblins, if you must have this make it a small national limit, but I dislike the idea, discipline is too common if you can make these.

Savage Orc Big Boss
Black Orc Big Boss (UU)

Why??
Have one of these as a royal guard unit, but not strength 12....
Remember our warboss mechanic, thats how you get Bosses. Great generals.

Same troll comments as for goblins.
The troll is already a superior unit, without adding all kinds of extra bonuse on top.
Plus if you have two, with their national limit of 5 each, then greenskins won't be fielding greenskin mixed armies in the early game, they'll just spam trolls.
Trolls and other monsters should be scary and rare, not the core front line.

War Cry: has a 20-50% chance to turn nearby enemy units with the Orc or goblin promotions to the casters team.

BARBARIAN units only, please.
And I thought this was going to be one of the big waaagh! spells?

[Humakty]

@Ahriman : well, this mod is rather aimed to large map or bigger, so having at least one unit early on that can quell animosity is a necessity, or you'll break your head trying to put up an attack stack. GG have many uses, being forced to use them this way is a BIG default.

Maybe you should keep in mind you'll be lagging in techs anyway, so having slightly stronger units should balance fine. Have we planned to give them a warrens kind of building ? If not, you ought to remember there are a lot of techs to go for before even hopping to field your late game units.

What will be the amount of tech penalty early/mid/late game ? Remember having an early penalty is really crippling, your cities grow slower, as you connect your resources slower, you'll most probably miss any early wonder (and a beeline will cost even more in terms of development than for any 'normal' civ).

If the orc/gob factions are not given a warrens effect, they'd better have something shiny to make you forget this is a game much based on economic/scientific development. ('cause I guess those greenskins won't get universities, or worse, banks (less cash = less units/cities)).

So I'd rather go for few weird buildings, with strange effects (like 'Pile of Dump), and a Disciplined unit, with at least a 4 national limit, available quite soon, so that you can rely on something else than your pathetic economy.
As for the warrens effect, I'm against it, the best would be to tailor the cost of units to fit for their lower production. ('cause guess who won't get the nice late game prod buildings ?)

[Psychic_Llamas]

Ugh. I don't like it. We have enough variation as it is with 20+ different factions with unique armylists without splitting the existing ones further.

kill joy

I see no need for this. Just have mushrooms as a health resource, and if you really want, have a research building UB (elder council replacement?)

Just make it:
Replaces Forge. +15 % hammer, +15 % research, -1 health
And then give no access to the library building.

ok. i added more UBs.

Is this just to be for balance alone because of the strength penalty? Thats probably reasonable.

yep.

Why are goblins getting *superior* cavalry? That doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe these guys should have a bonus vs melee instead of vs ranged units (the wolves are good vs melee, but arent' as fast and dont' close vs archers as quicky).

ok.

Is this supposed to be a rare leader with a small national limit, or an axeman replacement?
I oppose Discipline on an axeman replacement, it basically means that animosity no longer happens.

yeh it was. i did a bit of a rethink, and just made the Night Goblin Shaman have Disciplined for the gobbos, and gave the Black Orc 'Leet royal Guard UU for the orcs Disciplined. everything else suffers animosity. i actually forgot about our Great general mechanic. can u remind me what we had planned? ill add it to the design.

River Troll: ....
How about:
Strength 7, 1 move, no river crossing penalty, regeneration, +10% strength in marsh.

Stone Troll: ....
How about: strength 7, 1 move, regeneration, can cross peaks, +10% hill strength.

ok.

I also don't think they need 2 separate trolls, but I can live with it.

good cause theyre in the army book

If they have 2 trolls, they don't need this too. Too many units in the same slot.

deal.

Hunters and skirmishers are the same unit slot, every faction gets one or the other. Pick one, not both.

oops, thats a huge typo! my bad fixed. that ok now?

(Upgrade from Warrior for free)
This seems like it could be a very very dangerous idea, potentially very exploitative for human players.
How would you code this anyway? You'd have to make it into a spell, like Doviello? That seems a bad idea. The AI knows to upgrade troops to get a mixed force, but here it will just instantly upgrade everything to the same type.

bearing in mind i put that whole desing together at 3am , i actualyl dont know what i was really thinking. i like this idea of yours though:

If you like, give some of the leader the Ingenuity trait (halves upgrade costs) or have a UB that reduces upgrade costs in that city.

added a UB Breeding Hut Replaces Brothel. +2 Happy, -30-40% military unit production. -10% war wearyness. (???). Requires another tech to currency i think....

Quote:
Night Gobbo Fanatics (replaces Pikeman) Strength 10/4, very cheap, dies at the end of combat. +100% vs melee units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons

We can have some nasty fanatics at fanaticism tech, but they shouldn't be in the pikemen slot. I'd just give them a goblin pikeman unit of some kind.

Netters don't make sense in a pikemen slot either; that slot is for elite melee. Netters in a Ranger slot should be fine, balanced appropriately.

i made them UUs and got rid of Pikes from both orcs and gobbos.

Stack entangles on a core unit are a bad idea though. Entangling one unit, maybe, but not the whole stack. How big are those nets??

oops thats a typo too. i was thinking 'single unit when i wrote that haha.

(Though.... strength 10 with metal weapons and +100% vs melee? Seriously?)

dont just critisise. suggest an alternative!

[Psychic_Llamas]

Completely disagree. If too many units have discipline, then animosity is meaningless.

Hopefully what ive done now is better?

Fighting Pit 2 units can challenge each other to provide 1 happy to the city and -100% war wearyness for 5 turns. there is a chance that one of the units dies, and there is another chance that both units get EXP and are damaged.
This is too close to the Bloodbowl Arena. Merge these.

again, see new UBs.

Orc: Racial promo.....
This is not a good idea, particularly with Aggressive leaders.
Orc racial promotion shouldn't give any bonus, instead selected orc units just get a city attack bonus.
Orcs aren't just better at everything. They don't have better cavalry, better

fair point. removed.

I don't really like this. Black orks should be the core elite melee, not some pikemen. Orks should not have great pikemen. They *should* be vulnerable to heavy cavalry. Basically, orks should have fantastic city attack, and good melee, so they will be sending in big melee stacks, and defenders should be bombing them with archers and cavalry on their way in, to soften them up.

hows what ive done now? (ditched pikemen altogether and made Royal guard a city attack/melee Pwner with Discipline. might need a lower National cap tho.

Orc Boarboyz
Savage Orc Boarboyz
Remove the core withdraw chance on these units.

done

Orc Boss
Savage Orc Big Boss
Black Orc Big Boss (UU)

again, is what ive done now ok?

Remember our warboss mechanic, thats how you get Bosses. Great generals.

heh, me, being on top form, forgot about that mechanic please remind me;P

Plus if you have two, with their national limit of 5 each, then greenskins won't be fielding greenskin mixed armies in the early game, they'll just spam trolls.

good point. dropped limit to 3.

BARBARIAN units only, please.
And I thought this was going to be one of the big waaagh! spells?

oops another typo. and i think alowing a big scary Black Orc 'Leet (and the great general UUs) use that spell wont hurt.

[Psychic_Llamas]

Ugh. I don't like it. We have enough variation as it is with 20+ different factions with unique armylists without splitting the existing ones further.

i honestly dont see how its such a big deal. its 5 more units than normal. its not that confusing, and the art thing isnt an issue. ill just make a reskin for night and forest goblins. it makes them more versatile as a single faction. thats the point. its not 2 civs, its 1 civ with a good dose of adaptability. besides, gobbos need to be able to give the dwarves a run for their money in the mountains, AND the elves in the forests.