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Old Nov 15, 2009, 01:44 PM   #101
Silu
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Originally Posted by Antilogic View Post
It's not magical skills that I am talking about. Literally the planets and the cosmos have to align for this one particular ability of East Indiamen (and to a lesser extent Carracks, but that wasn't the focus of the conversation) to be useful. And this is in the context of underrated UUs, so that means this scenario, which I describe as uncommon at best and more likely rare, has to occur often enough that I will wish I had the Dutch UU to exploit the opportunity. I'm not convinced.

I'm not saying every game. I'm not saying every few games. I'm saying that I can only recall a handful of positions like this in my entire Civ4-playing career.

And frankly, random events like all your melee units getting Cover for free are about as rare in my eyes but also helpful as well. If I described a new civilization's UU as a "once every so many games, you might get this extra ability, maybe"...I would probably be laughed at.
You missed the point. Which is, even without this particular ability they are almost on par with the unit that obsoletes it and because of it sometimes better. Cover event is a bad analogy, a better one would be a good-in-their-own-right Axeman UU that in rare circumstances can be better than regular Macemen. That's an indicator of power IMO, no matter how rare the situation (which isn't actually that rare on water maps which some players favor a lot). Galleon as a base unit for one's UU still sucks of course compared to Axemen or such.

For the record, I don't think EIs are generally underrated - if something the opposite, people tend to overrate water UUs even (or especially) for water maps IMO ("There's water, so a water UU must be good!"). That doesn't say anything about their real power level of course which kinda makes this whole discussion off topic.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 01:03 PM   #102
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To talk about some good UBs, since the focus seems to be on UUs...

Salon (observatory) - free great artist means you can start getting some huge culture bonuses, since you should be building observatories anyhow

Dike (levee) - obviously a good one for coastal cities

Stele (monument) - build Stonehedge and REX like crazy...

Forum (market) - pretty obviously a great building
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 02:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by kochman View Post
Stele (monument) - build Stonehedge and REX like crazy...
Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? SH with a CRE Civ that doesn't start with Mysticism + REX sounds like a recipe for disaster for me Or maybe Stonehedge means GW instead of Stonehenge?

Underrated UBs IMO:

- Madrassa: The extra 4 culture helps a ton in mid-late game culture wars. Priests slots are extra gravy.

- Citadel: People say that it obsoletes too soon, when with some premeditation you can go, for example, 10XP Arty + 10XP MCGs + mopup Rifles rampage while not obsoleting your GLH.

- Terrace: Doesn't get much mention in the good UB discussions even though it can be a free half of a trait at times. Plus the only way to get absolutely free (not reliant on working/artisting citizens) border pops at times during conquest.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:02 PM   #104
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If I may ask... what's so obviously great about the Forum?

It's a quarter of PHI, without the building discount. 4 times the advantage of many other UBs would be better than any existing trait. +8, +40%, +8 and 8 priest slots, -100% city maintenance (so free gold with a courthouse?), +4 ...

and that's only buildings which often come earlier than markets, not over-the-top things like 8 free scientists.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:05 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Silu View Post
Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? SH with a CRE Civ that doesn't start with Mysticism + REX sounds like a recipe for disaster for me Or maybe Stonehedge means GW instead of Stonehenge?

Underrated UBs IMO:

- Madrassa: The extra 4 culture helps a ton in mid-late game culture wars. Priests slots are extra gravy.

- Citadel: People say that it obsoletes too soon, when with some premeditation you can go, for example, 10XP Arty + 10XP MCGs + mopup Rifles rampage while not obsoleting your GLH.

- Terrace: Doesn't get much mention in the good UB discussions even though it can be a free half of a trait at times. Plus the only way to get absolutely free (not reliant on working/artisting citizens) border pops at times during conquest.
Madrassa: Only has 2 extra culture over the library, unless you assume that the culture is already doubled in the mid-late game.

Citadel: 10 XP Trebs/Cannon + 7XP Conquistadors is not half bad either

Terrace: Creative of course does that as well, and the Sistine Chapel will also help, as there are often citizens that can't work tiles and/or settled specialists in newly conquered cities.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:06 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by kochman View Post
To talk about some good UBs, since the focus seems to be on UUs...

Salon (observatory) - free great artist means you can start getting some huge culture bonuses, since you should be building observatories anyhow.
What's extra great about a free GA as opposed to just a culture bonus is that you also get some free research if you are running Representation, so it really has potential for both science and culture (and isn't there a wonder that adds more culture to specialists?).
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:13 PM   #107
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What's extra great about a free GA as opposed to just a culture bonus is that you also get some free research if you are running Representation, so it really has potential for both science and culture (and isn't there a wonder that adds more culture to specialists?).
You get free research anyway even without Representation, although not much, as an artist gives 1 in addition to 4.

The Sistine Chapel gives 2 to every specialist and settled specialist.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:22 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Calouste View Post
Madrassa: Only has 2 extra culture over the library, unless you assume that the culture is already doubled in the mid-late game.
Yes, when culture wars become an issue then the Library better be doubled or there's a bigger problem in the game than foreign culture

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Citadel: 10 XP Trebs/Cannon + 7XP Conquistadors is not half bad either
Problem with that is that you forgo the main advantage of Conqs, 2 move. Usually if going Conqs then just massing them or using "black-clad siege" is more desirable. Still much better than Cuirassier&Cannon (though this combo is very, very rare ) since Conqs are much better defenders.

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Terrace: Creative of course does that as well, and the Sistine Chapel will also help, as there are often citizens that can't work tiles and/or settled specialists in newly conquered cities.
So do building Culture, Caste System or Eiffel Tower so the Terraces don't really matter that much at that point. Still, early game it's often very very helpful.

And yeah I agree with Iranon in that Forum is very bad and often only going to be of any use in just a single city. Though last time I ranted about their suckiness madscientist pointed out that if going WE/SSE with AC it can be okay.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 03:23 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Calouste View Post
You get free research anyway even without Representation, although not much, as an artist gives 1 in addition to 4.

The Sistine Chapel gives 2 to every specialist and settled specialist.

So, you have a building that potentially gives you 4 science and 6 culture, as well as 25% to all science in the city - that's a pretty awesome improvement, and well worth a few extra GAs (at least they are better than Great Prophets, can be used for getting conquered cities up and running quicker).
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 06:31 PM   #110
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And yeah I agree with Iranon in that Forum is very bad and often only going to be of any use in just a single city. Though last time I ranted about their suckiness madscientist pointed out that if going WE/SSE with AC it can be okay.
I agree, too. I never understand people that love the forum ; for me they are blinded by the (already overrated by significant) power of praetorian.

The terrace, I think it's just so obviously good thatnobody talk about it, but nobody deny it being very strong. People prefer to talk about madrassa or obelisk because they feel powerful but hard to use ; with terrace I don't see how to go wrong.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 08:30 PM   #111
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Fast workers are underrated IMO
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 08:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by r_rolo1 View Post
IMHO the most underrated UB is clearly the Spanish one. In the end people don't like it because they don't like castles ( better said, a lot of players has a unreasonable and hard to justify love for the Economics tech and a equally unreasonable and hard to justify lazyness in getting Engineering ). Getting lvl 3 arties and MGs out of the gate is probably one of the most unbalanced things you can have in this game, given that the only anti siege mechanism there is in game besides air power is flanking and artilery is the only siege unit that can't be flanked by units of their era....
I acknowledge you play at a higher level than me and I donít want to get into a Ďwhoís right?í over this and itís great that some people leverage the citadel well butÖ
Itís not for me. And hereís why

1.) I love OR and Bureaucracy too much to use vassalage or theocracy to get to that vital CRIII stage.
2.) Economics may not be all that (although I more often than not prefer astronomy free market to mercantilism) but you need economics to get corporation (to get corporations) to get assembly line (to get infantry AND factories/power plants, basically AL is the bronze working on the modern era) to get industrialism (tanks, battleships, marines) to get plastics to get computers (where the all time bad mamma jamma equalizer the internet comes.)

I just canít get myself to postpone all that post-economics goodness, even if it is for game breaking siege.

In a way, playing as Spain is kind of like playing as an IND leader...you have this power that you can capitalize on, but it may lead you astray from the fundamentals. When I play as them again I just may try to block the whole citadel thing out of my head. Not completely of course, I'll have my HE city pump out some CRII (as opposed to CRI) trebuchats.

On a different, but somewhat related note, I like the assembly plant. With coal and Frederick thatís 1/4 speed factories. The extra slots for engineers all but guarantees a GE for Mining or Constructions.
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 10:29 AM   #113
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Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? SH with a CRE Civ that doesn't start with Mysticism + REX sounds like a recipe for disaster for me Or maybe Stonehedge means GW instead of Stonehenge?
No, stonehedge means stonehedge... get a free monument/stele... stele has +1 culture, and +25% culture.
Its really not that hard to get mysticism after all... come on, this isn't hard to achieve at all. I did it on monarch with no problem.
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 10:35 AM   #114
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Fast workers are underrated IMO
Fast workers are great but IMO they do get due props on the forum.
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 10:49 AM   #115
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No, stonehedge means stonehedge... get a free monument/stele... stele has +1 culture, and +25% culture.
Its really not that hard to get mysticism after all... come on, this isn't hard to achieve at all. I did it on monarch with no problem.
It may be easy, but that's still the peak of the uselessness to do stonehenge with Zara Yaqob, or any other creative and non charismatic leader. A stele in every city ? Even for cultural victory one shouldn't care less ; stele have narrow use and only in the strangest game you will actually gain hammer by making stonehenge instead of stele in handpicked cities.
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 12:17 PM   #116
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It may be easy, but that's still the peak of the uselessness to do stonehenge with Zara Yaqob, or any other creative and non charismatic leader. A stele in every city ? Even for cultural victory one shouldn't care less ; stele have narrow use and only in the strangest game you will actually gain hammer by making stonehenge instead of stele in handpicked cities.
Ok, I completely disagree.
1) You get GP points for making stonehedge, this will be useful when you later conquer a holy city or found one yourself (I generally found at least taoism, though I don't specifically try to)
2) Stonehedge is cheap as dirt, especially if you have stone - again, see #1
3) Free stele is every city you found of conquer, up to Astronomy, for the price of a 120 (or 60 with stone, how many forest tiles is that?):,
4) +1 and more importantly, +25% in all of those cities - this bonus lasts the entire game
5) This adds up over time as your borders take over the neighbors and you get the land to work as well as flip some cities (especially if you throw a couple of spies in those cities to speed the process up) - so add resources and cities, which means you easily recoup the 120 of your initial investment
6) Culture points go toward score don't they? (I like to score better every time I play)
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 12:30 PM   #117
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1) You get GP points for making stonehedge, this will be useful when you later conquer a holy city or found one yourself (I generally found at least taoism, though I don't specifically try to)
2) Stonehedge is cheap as dirt, especially if you have stone - again, see #1
3) Free stele is every city you found of conquer, up to Astronomy, for the price of a 120 (or 60 with stone, how many forest tiles is that?):,
4) +1 and more importantly, +25% in all of those cities - this bonus lasts the entire game
5) This adds up over time as your borders take over the neighbors and you get the land to work as well as flip some cities (especially if you throw a couple of spies in those cities to speed the process up) - so add resources and cities, which means you easily recoup the 120 of your initial investment
6) Culture points go toward score don't they? (I like to score better every time I play)
1) Better grab the oracle. Prophet are not hard to come by anway
2) Stonehenge is costly, because it's early. You can build awe or settler to actually do something instead of this near useless wonder (dor creative, anyway). And you will about never have stone in line for stonehenge, or for an insignificant amount of it. You need masonry, stone near one of your city, and build road. Zara does not have the wheel (nor does he have mysticism) at start, to be real sure you can't do it in time
3) You are ALREADY creative, meaning a stele will not be strong. Gaining a turn before first expand, big deal !
4) BEEP wrong. The stele is gone with astronomy, so you keep the accumulated culture, loose the 25% and the +1 culture. So, stonehenge make you LOOSE culture on the long run. Not a big amoun (150-200 per city in a cultural win, something like that), but still
5) Only very precise city benefit from that. Stele are already cheap as dirt, and library too, and theater too (creative, remember ?). So, it's really next to useless
6) And ?

The main error is that you believe stonehenge to be cheap. It's more expensive than three gorge dam or Christo redemptor, because it's early and everything in early game mean a lot In fact, grabbing stoenhenge is one of the most expensive thing to do ...

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Old Nov 17, 2009, 12:49 PM   #118
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Come on now...
1) I often try to get the oracle, but can't always get there. I didn't come up with a GP in my current emperor game until after 1500AD, despite have 4 holy cities, because I didn't get to build any other religious wonders... so... your argument is not really an argument against my point. You suggest going for another wonder that costs more.
2) 120 is not costly at any point. 3 monuments, if going for a cultural win, for example, costs you 90 For 30 more, I can get a free stele in every city I found or conquer until astronomy, that's going to be about 24 in my games. Anyhow, again, you can get those hammers from 2-3 forests, then whip the rest. That's easy. Saying the cheapest wonder in the game is costly, that's kind of ridiculous. You say its the most expensive... because it is early... its 120 hammers... period.
3) Not only talking about the first border growth, but the 2nd and 3rd also.
4) I was under the impression that only the happiness bonus disappeared at Astronomy. Either way, your claim that ST makes you loose culture in the long run makes no sense.
5) Very specific cities? Like, all the ones that border other empires? I'd say those are pretty darn important, since the stele were free to begin with.
6) Yep.
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 01:01 PM   #119
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1) I often try to get the oracle, but can't always get there. I didn't come up with a GP in my current emperor game until after 1500AD, despite have 4 holy cities, because I didn't get to build any other religious wonders... so... your argument is not really an argument against my point. You suggest going for another wonder that costs more.
But the Orale actually do something worthwhile. Other good wonder give GP point, and you can even use priest specialist, they are good enough by themselves. Temple are not hard to create if you have 4 holy city, and once you have one shrine, it let you run more priest to shrine the other religion, if the need arise (not alway the case).
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You say its the most expensive... because it is early... its 120 hammers... period.
And it actually IS very costly. I don't see how you can say otherwise.

Look it another way : most of the time, a stele in mid game is about 1 turn and usually delay nothing that I couldn't build elsewhere. Stonehenge delay settlers at the moment where expanding is critical. Or eat some axe I can use to definitely put Shaka out of commission. When you build stonehenge you have 2 city, max 3, so it IS one of the most expensive thing you can build.

And what's more, city where the +25% culture will really amount to something are rare and few between. In a lot of case, it will never do anythhing because the culture difference is too big with or without stele ; having more than 3 city that were built about at the ame time as an AI city is unusual, to say the least.
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3) Not only talking about the first border growth, but the 2nd and 3rd also.
And ? You gain a ridiculous amount of timen, and they do'nt serve a lot. It's super minor as advantage, especially since yo uare creative in the first place
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4) I was under the impression that only the happiness bonus disappeared at Astronomy. Either way, your claim that ST makes you loose culture in the long run makes no sense.
It make sens, you loose culture with losing stonehenge. Why ? Because regular stele give +1 culture that never disappear. Stoneheneg give you stele, and the stel diasspear with astornomy, meaning even the +1 culture dissappear, so you DO loose culture. A small amount.

(in both case, you loose the +25% culture)
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5) Very specific cities? Like, all the ones that border other empires? I'd say those are pretty darn important, since the stele were free to begin with.
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6) Yep.
Yep.

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Old Nov 17, 2009, 01:07 PM   #120
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^ You still haven't answered how Stonehenge would allow you to REX better. IMO, building Stonehenge with creative leader is a waste of hammers that could be better spent elsewhere. Chances are that if you're a creative leader you're at least holding your own on culture wars early in the game and there are plenty of opportunity to build cultural buildings later on. As for getting a GP to build a shrine, if you plan adequately you can get yourself one of them or better yet let someone build one for you. That forgetting for the moment that you're probably better off getting yourself an early GS or GE than a GP.
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