Underrated UUs/UBs

[kochman]

Originally Posted by kochman

ok, you guys win, you are smarter than me.

changed my previous post... this is my current opinion on this topic.

[vicawoo]

Not bad for culture. Your stonehenge will be pumping out 20 culture per turn.

[dankok8]

UU's:

1) Gallic warriors - can get them as soon as you research Iron Working if you have Copper. It also makes you not dependent on Iron until Machinery/CS, If you give them GII with Barracks, they get double movement on hills, making them amazingly tenacious raiders - good human players chop forests, but hills cannot be removed and many cities can be vulnerable to quick strikes. Since both Boudica and Brennus are Char, Barracks puts you 1 XP from GIII - 50% retreat chance and +25% hill attack (also useful in MP since many cities will be on hills). GIII is when Gallics get truly scary. Boudica also gives you a free CI from Agg.

2) Camel Archers - resourceless so can always build them even if lacking a resource. This is extremely beneficial in MP where people will try to cutoff your resources. On top of always being able to build these powerful units, they have a 15% retreat chance (Knights have 0%) so giving at least some FI and FII is a good strategy. They may be the best way to overrun longbow-defended cities quickly using medieval technology. Work well in conjunction with Spies.

3) Ballista Elephants - one of the weakest UU's no doubt but still have a use. In MP where large SoD battles in the field are common, killing enemy mounted units can easily change the outcome of a battle and a game. Mounted can destroy your siege through flanking damage and are often among if not the strongest attackers. There is only so much you can improve a War Elephant before it becomes overpowered.

UB's:

1) Sacrificial Altar - most think its strong, but its the strongest!! As long as you have food around, you'll either have a really huge army or a really developed empire early on!

2) Citadel - +5XP for siege is huge. With a Barracks and Theocracy, you can get CRIII Trebs out of the gate that cut through cities like a knife through butter.

2) Assembly Plants - 2 extra Engineers really boosts production. Not spectacular, but pretty useful nonetheless.

[TheMeInTeam]

Stonehenge for CRE only makes sense if you intend to fast-bulb theo and take control of the AP. The AP in an obscure religion is so strong that it overcomes trait considerations...in most games getting it means you win!

[Windsor]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Stonehenge for CRE only makes sense if you intend to fast-bulb theo and take control of the AP. The AP in an obscure religion is so strong that it overcomes trait considerations...in most games getting it means you win!

And that is also why the obelisk is the best UB in the game

[xarthaz]

Fast worker isnt n1 in all lists so underrated imo

[Raizer]

Fast worker has a visible advantage over standard workers, but not so much that it's the best UU. It doesn't build improvements faster, it just moves faster. So yeah, it can get around quicker, and perhaps save a turn when moving onto forest or hill, but IMO that doesn't make it #1.

^ I play on Marathon, though, so an extra move is not as significant.

[TheLazyHase]

I agree. If anything, Fast worker are more overrated than underrated. Yes, it never obsolete, and it may be the unit you build in biggest number, but still a 3 move worker is just nice to have, when some UU can just turn the table.

[Silu]

Originally Posted by TheLazyHase

I agree. If anything, Fast worker are more overrated than underrated. Yes, it never obsolete, and it may be the unit you build in biggest number, but still a 3 move worker is just nice to have, when some UU can just turn the table.

All depends on your definition of 'best'. If it's 'objective mean benefit gained over a big number of games' then Fast Workers are probably the best, since they're of use every game which no other UU is (Quechuas come close though wrt barbs). If the definition is something that's more biased towards higher variance like mean square or 'probability that the UU greatly helps me win the game' then Fast Workers are much worse since they almost never actually make or break a game.

Oh, and IMO their benefits are indeed mitigated by at least 50% on Marathon compared to Normal.

[ICNP]

Hwacha: I don't care if the AI is using only archers, the fact that it has rockets on it makes it the best UU ever

Hammam: Yummy

Chukonu: Okay this thing has Collateral damage, and both leaders are protective. Throw in a Oracle'd Metal Casting/Machinery.

[ICNP]

Originally Posted by Raizer

Fast worker has a visible advantage over standard workers, but not so much that it's the best UU. It doesn't build improvements faster, it just moves faster. So yeah, it can get around quicker, and perhaps save a turn when moving onto forest or hill, but IMO that doesn't make it #1.

^ I play on Marathon, though, so an extra move is not as significant.

Quick games though they are excellent. Really every other civ (save Rome, England) are just weak with their UU in Quick, whereas Fast workers get better. But Marathon screws them up while making stuff like Janissaries awesome.

[TheMeInTeam]

England's UU shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of Rome's, India's, Egypt's, Persia's, or Sumeria's. This isn't early vanilla anymore people. Redcoats don't have 16 strength now. They have 14, and really only help against muskets and rifles. If you're attacking cities defended by rifles, however, you've lost your best attack gap with them and you are NOT going to get winning odds with any consistency without siege doing your heavy lifting. You can beat muskets...and cavalry with pinch beat you in the field just like any other rifle. Infantry and MG's still OWN you silly. Redcoats are somewhat useful, they are NOT a top UU anymore and have not been since their 16 base str got pulled.

[maurcus]

the oromo, with 5xp you can get drill 1,2,3 and 4 (i.e. 6-8 first strikes x 9 strength= 5.4 to 7.2 damage to an enemy unit)

[bhavv]

Good god, reading through this thread again is so contradictory to what people keep on telling me today lol.

[r_rolo1]

Well, I can't talk for the others, but I:

- still believe that SA is somewhat overrated, but not much

- still believe that the Spanish UB is sorely underrated.

- still can summon some East Indiamen in later ages by cutting the oil out for some turns

[TheMeInTeam]

EI are definitely underrated. Here are their counters at contemporary or earlier times, or any time that isn't 1000's and 1000's of beakers later and requiring a resource:








...show me another unit like that .

[elohssa]

I've recently had a big fondness for Cossacks. The AI absolutely loves spamming knights. I've recently had a war against JC and he had stacks with something like 40 knights, 20 War Elephants and a few crossbows, maces, trebs, pikes. The Cossacks anihilated that stack without a single loss despite some knights and elephants having formation. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

[MilesBeyond]

I feel like a lot of UBs are underrated simply because they're overlooked for not being top tier. Just because something's not as good as the Terrace or Sacrificial Altar doesn't mean that it doesn't offer a nice bonus.

Rome's Forum is a good example. Not game-changing, but a helpful boost to have in SEs. Carthage's Cothon is another one, free extra trade route in every coastal city? Not bad at all. Two of my favourites are England's Stock Exchange and Korea's Seowon: A nice 15% improvement on buildings you'd have to get anyway in order to pick up their respective NW. And the Hammam? +2 health and +2 on the same building is very tempting, in my mind.

There are only five UBs that I would consider to not be any more helpful than their original building in most situations: Assembly Plant, Shale Plant, and Research Institute (all do too little, too late. Of those three I prefer AP, though, because at least its production bonus with Coal combined with Freddy's ORG means you can get them up very quickly - also I'm showing mercy to the Mall because its bonus is of at least some use that late in the game), as well as the Salon (a free artist in a building that will probably only be going in science cities?) and the Madrassa (a library that can also allow priests... Ohhhhhkay. How often is anyone actually going to use that bonus?)

[Iranon]

The Forum is a contender for the weakest UBs. It's value-over-base is less than 1/4 of a trait (no University discount). Compare this to pretty much ANY UB whose benefits scale easily and it doesn't look good.

Also, the cost reduction of the AssPlant is made considerably LESS beneficial by Frederick's ORG discount.

[TheMeInTeam]

Rome's Forum is a good example.

No it isn't. 1 turn (maybe) faster on one great person is not exactly a good UB. Things like the citadel are underrated UB because people don't understand how long you can milk them...and the fairly early straight or boosters too. Hammam is pretty well-regarded actually.

Assembly plant does blow. Shale plant is a substantial health + resource trade boost late game and cuts dependency on any resource for power ever; not a bad deal if the game goes that long.

Salon is only worthwhile under rep lol. Madrassa, on the other hand, combines the potential for AP cheese with the rather gross 4 base that doubles to 8 per turn which can overpower creative once set up.