Binary tech'ing and beaker overflow

[L-Plate Ruler]

In this thread vicawoo commented that:

Originally Posted by vicawoo

The overflow carries over to the next tech you research, so if you really need a tech, you can put 500 beakers into hunting and take a nice chunk out of the next tech.

Does this mean binary tech'ing is a double edged sword. Yes you could come out with more gold than if you didn't do it, but will you tech slower because of the negated overflow?

Confused

[DaveMcW]

Research overflow has no penalties or advantages.

Besides the obvious advantage of less micromanagement.

[Ghpstage]

Huh? Nowhere in that thread is binary teching mentioned
If all civs know a tech you get a bonus for researching it, i'm pretty sure Vicawoo is saying that the bonus applies to overflow that you can use to get a big boost to your next tech.

i.e. if your making 500 and the bonus gives you 1.2* you will have 600 , the overflow from teching hunting will give the next tech a bigger boost

Never heard of it before though, so I haven't a clue if its true

[Nares]

In this thread, it's explained.

[DaveMcW]

Originally Posted by Nares

In this thread, it's explained.

No, the last paragraph of the first post in that thread is wrong.

[StrategeryBush]

I'm not sure if this is the same thing that the OP was asking, but does tech overflow work like hammer overflow? If I have 20 hammers overflow and put it into a Warrior, which only takes 15 hammers, then I lose the extra 5 hammers. Does the same mechanic work in tech? It is rare that one could overflow all the way through a tech, but I suppose that it could happen.

[Groogaroo]

Originally Posted by StrategeryBush

Does the same mechanic work in tech?

Not as far as I know, I've read before that you never lose tech over flow it will simply keep overflowing until you get to a tech that will take longer than 1 turn, although I've never had the opportunity to actually test it out my self.

[Yamps]

Originally Posted by DaveMcW

No, the last paragraph of the first post in that thread is wrong.

Really? Uh, I'll have to read through that thread or check for myself...One post that caught my attention:

Originally Posted by Dog of Justice

Anyone notice that in 1.61, tech overflow is lossy? Instead of getting either the current multiplier (which would be the correct behavior) or the previous multiplier, overflow beakers don't get any multiplier at all -- in effect you lose at least 1/6, often more, of your investment. So, overflow is no longer exploitable, that's a good thing... but on the other hand, this brings us back to the situation we had in previous versions of Civ, where you were usually compelled to micromanage the last turn before discovering a tech.

This implies that research bonuses are lost with overflow, but you say it doesn't matter. Could you explain in a few words what exactly happens with overflow beakers?

[Nares]

Originally Posted by DaveMcW

No, the last paragraph of the first post in that thread is wrong.

Sadly, the thread dies before the mechanics are correctly explained.

Is the actual modifier on overflow X2/X1, as daviddesj suggested?

[L-Plate Ruler]

Sorry, I might not have asked the question properly.

1. Does beaker overflow work the same as hammer overflow?

2. If it does, then when you binary tech and in the last few turns reduce the tech rate so you're not 'wasting' money, surely you're reducing the amount of beakers that could overflow to the next tech, correct?

[Harv]

I will take a stab at this and then play-test it to see if it is accurate. Please feel free to correct me if (and where) I am wrong.

Tech Overflow: The research that is invested in finishing the technology is subject to a bonus; the rest is carried over to the next project when it is selected but no bonus is applied until the next project is selected. That way you do not get double bonuses.

Example: You are producing 83 beakers per turn and your research project gives you a 25% bonus and you have 20 beakers left to complete the technology. 16 of these beakers get the 25% bonus and complete the project and the other 67 beakers are carried over to the next project. So on the next turn you have 86 beakers, you are now applying 153 beakers to the next project, plus whatever the bonus is.

This appears to be subject to rounding errors.

This opens the door to..... Binary Research: Binary research is where you have the research slider at either 0% or 100%. This is because the commerce dedicated to research and taxation is rounded down. You avoid this by setting the research slider to either 0% or 100%.

I will set up a quick starting game and let you know what I find.

ADDED: I played a quick bit at Monarch level.

Tech.....Cost.....Beakers.....BPT.....Applied..... Bonus.....Overflow....Next Turn Research
Fishing....69.......60...........9.........8...... ......1...........1..............1+9+1=11 (10% Bonus)
Mining.....85.......81..........12........4....... .....0...........8..............8+12+2=22 (10% Bonus)
Wheel.....103.....101.........17........2......... ...0...........15............15+17+15=47 (almost 50%)
Pottery...138.....122.........17........11........ ...5...........6.............6+20+6=32 (25% Bonus)
Bronze....207.....200.........17........6......... ...1...........11............11+17+7=35 (25% Bonus)

[DaveMcW]

Originally Posted by Nares

Is the actual modifier on overflow X2/X1, as daviddesj suggested?

If that is the modifier required to avoid any penalties or advantages, then yes.

Originally Posted by L-Plate Ruler

Sorry, I might not have asked the question properly.

1. Does beaker overflow work the same as hammer overflow?

2. If it does, then when you binary tech and in the last few turns reduce the tech rate so you're not 'wasting' money, surely you're reducing the amount of beakers that could overflow to the next tech, correct?

1. Yes, but without any of the obscure hammer overflow penalties and advantages.
2. Yes.

[vicawoo]

Hmmm, they fixed it in 1.61, I didn't notice back then.

-Spending 3 years doing extra micromanagement.

[L-Plate Ruler]

OK, so back to my original theory, the downside of binary tech'ing is that you'll (potentially) tech at a slower rate due to the reduced beaker overflow.

This might be a moot point because if you're binary tech'ing then you're probably maximising beaker output anyway through micromanaging other facets.

I can only assume this might, over the course of several (many) techs, draw out the research time by only one, maybe two turns.

[vicawoo]

There's no beaker reduction, what they did was you have your base beaker amount (including all your science multipliers). That beaker amount is further multiplied by prerequisite and the % of civs that already know it bonus. You overflow the base beaker amount, not the multiplied amount, but the leftover beaker amount gets the multipliers of whatever tech you decide to choose next.

What happened before is that it kept the original multiplier from the overflowed tech and did not get the new techs multiplier. If you overflowed newly discovered liberalism to masonry, your overflow would get no multiplier whereas any new beakers to masonry would. Conversely if you overflowed masonry to starting on liberalism, you'd get the bonuses.

Binary research will for the most part have nothing to do with multipliers. It can only help if while saving up gold other civs research your tech and give you a discount.

I'll try to think of a low math example.

Dave & Buster's having a 2 for 1 cash to D&B currency sale. You buy a soda with a $100 bill and they give you change in multiplied D&B dollars. Pre 1.61, you go to their new affiliate, Bave & Dusters, who accept Dave & Buster dollars but do not have a 2 for 1 cash sale. You revel in how you have almost $200 of Bave & Dusters money for $100.
Then the management, Fireaxis, finds out about how cool, smart customers are upholding the righteous principles of capitalism and free market. After consulting the headless chicken southpark oracle, they issue decree 1.61: when customers leave Dave & Busters or Bave & Dusters, they will receive an IOU for their leftover DB dollars, but the number will be in real dollars. Customers can exchange the IOU at Dave & Busters at Bave & Dusters, and on 2 for 1 days it will get double the dollars.

If this makes sense to you, then you should see how you don't lose money from overflow, you just can't gain money.

And then the management Fireaxis decides to issue decree 3.19

Spoiler:

and declare that all handicapped cripples, deemed "protective players", are not allowed to use wheelchairs