If going into modern, is loose placement best?

[austincm]

so my question is the title, If going into modern, is loose placement best?

also, is using scientists in your cities any good?

also would loose placement look like this?

c = city, x = space

cxxxxcxxxxc
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
cxxxxcxxxxc
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
cxxxxcxxxxc

or what?

[MysteryX]

I would answer the city placement question the same way I answered here (based on my usually difficultly level, Monarch, and a strategy that goes toward a late age win).


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...9&postcount=11

[ChaosArbiter]

Originally Posted by austincm

so my question is the title, If going into modern, is loose placement best?

If you're in a high-food environment where you know your cities are definitely going to be able to grow past the fat-x workspace ... maybe. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, as the terrain will need to figure into it. Are you going to get as big a benefit from the larger number of citizens compared to the number of cities you would lose? Especially since unless you've been purposely not building many cities, by the time you reach the Industrial/Modern eras, your new cities will likely be highly corrupt, meaning that you get less value from the citizens and more from Specialists.

also, is using scientists in your cities any good?

In non-corrupt cities, Scientists/Taxmen (which aren't affectd by Corruption) are better than Entertainers, but mainly because the citizens are still doing something. In highly-corrupt cities, Scientists/Taxmen are very useful, since that's 3 more Beakers or 2 more gpt per Specialist - so if you have a 90% Corrupt size 6 city with 4 Scientists, it'll make 12 Beakers each turn, whereas if all the citizens were working, you still probably wouldn't get more than 2-3 Beakers. Civil Engineers are also fairly useful.

also would loose placement look like this?

Close, although if I were doing it they wouldn't be set up on a grid, but staggered slightly (which doesn't translate well into picture). Instead of being 5 tiles directly above another city, it would be (for example) NE 1, N 3, so they slot next to each other.

[Fiddlin Nero]

City spacing beyond your core cities is about border integrity. Tight spacing CxxC covers all the tiles without the need for buildings (temples/libraries.) Loose spacing is that which will cover all the tiles after cultural expansion which requires those temples/libraries. Its like putting a puzzle together to get the best coverage without overlapping unnecessarily. Decisions still need to be made about overlaps and holes, do you live with them using units to fill holes or do you tighten up the spacing. Can't imagine what the Age, Modern or otherwise has to do with it.

Gotta brag, surprised myself recently when I built a city and got a cultural expansion 2 turns later, know how? or can anyone beat it?

As to Scientists, if town/city/metropolis has 1 shield for production, I eventually turn it into a science farm. They add up and can make a big difference.

[ChaosArbiter]

Gotta brag, surprised myself recently when I built a city and got a cultural expansion 2 turns later, know how? or can anyone beat it?

I'm thinking you had a Wonder that gives you a Culture buildings, but I think there are only two of those (Temple and Research Lab), but the Temple/Lab only gives you 2/turn, which means you'd need 8 Culture from something else over two turns, Library and Cathedral gives you 3/turn ...
Argh!
Turn 0 (City build): Temple built, Rush Library.
Turn 1: 2 Culture from Temple, Library built, Rush Cathedral (2 Culture)
Turn 2: 5 Culture From Temple/Library, Cat built (7 Culture)
Turn 3: 8 Culture from Temple/Library/Cat (15 Culture and expansion)

Okay, I can see it being done in 3 turns if you had the Temple of Artemis and were Republic/Monarchy so you could rush the Library (you don't need the Cathedral), but unless you get Culture from a building the same turn you build it I don't see how you could have it done in 2 turns short of blowing an SGL on a Wonder that first turn (Turn 0).

[Spoonwood]

Nero might have SGLed (or MGLed in Vanilla) The Great Library, Bach's, Shake's, Newton's, the Sistine Chapel. He also could have not SGLed any of those high culture wonders and still had the expansion. He might have accomplished this by "building" two buildings in one turn. Unless I've missed something the maximum amount of culture obtainable in two turns is...

Spoiler:

9 culture on the first turn from disbanding your capital without any other cities on the map, getting a new palace (+1) for free, SGLing Shake's (+8) for free.

SUM(9, 9, 6)=24 culture for SGLing one of the 6 culture wonders, *or* the Internet on turn two (I think, SETI is 3 cpt, the Internet and the U. N. 4 cpt?), plus 9 from Shake's and your palace on turn one and 9 more from those buildings on turn two.

In terms of city placement for space games I recommend two basic principles that you use, and that you worry less about a spacing scheme.

1. Place cities based on terrain. Found on rivers. Found next to lakes. Jam cities into the coast so you can maximize commerce from sea and ocean squares (and build commercial docks). Found on hills to maximize food. Found on brown instead of green if they lie next to each other to maximize food.

2. Make sure that every square within your cultural borders can get used by some city at some point. If you have a square which can't used by any city even with a hospital at some point, then found a city on or around that square so that you can use it.

If you get hospitals and feel comfortable with your production level then I'd add this...

3. Irrigate *all* squares once a city has hospitals and turn any specialists you gain into scientists. Really, under most circumstances turn all specialists into scientists.

[Ceoladir]

Even for a space game, CxxxC is probably superior.

[dominatr]

i usually settle loose early on, and then before the ancient age ends, i pack some cities in spots where i can fit one to have a full 9 tiles to itself.

[Fiddlin Nero]

Well Austin I've never seen a single best answer come out of a city placement discussion, good luck with that one.

As to culture growth in 2 turns, I had the Internet giving me 3 for the lab, I pop-rushed a library which gives 2 more, what surprised me was that the library culture counted on the turn immeadiately following the pop-rush, a turn later I have my 10 culture.

[Spoonwood]

Originally Posted by Fiddlin Nero

Well Austin I've never seen a single best answer come out of a city placement discussion, good luck with that one.

As to culture growth in 2 turns, I had the Internet giving me 3 for the lab, I pop-rushed a library which gives 2 more, what surprised me was that the library culture counted on the turn immeadiately following the pop-rush, a turn later I have my 10 culture.

The only real debate lies between CxxC and CxxxC spacing. ICS (infinite city sprawl or CxC) leads to too much corruption. OCP, that is "optimum city placement" or CxxxxC, leaves too many tiles open for too long, and also if not carefully done leads to tiles within your cultural borders which can't get used ever. Some players might point out that 12 workable tiles per city comes as the ideal, which most experienced players I believe would agree on, but that's somewhere between a CxxC and a CxxxC spacing.

[dominatr]

the AI settles loosely, and usually is a bit more powerful in the modern age. This is why it is easier to beat enemies before the modern age.

if you are going into the mdern age, settle loosely and quickly. You will need to make your empire as big as possible and leave your enemies as weak as possible before heading in, because they start to get fussy with you and its nice to have more tanks than them to keep their mouth shut, rather than staring down a barrel of a gun when they ask you for gold.

At higher difficulty, tighter settling is necessary since the AI has more advantages. But, for lower difficulty, i don't see why not to settle loosely.

[vorlon_mi]

Originally Posted by Spoonwood

In terms of city placement for space games I recommend two basic principles that you use, and that you worry less about a spacing scheme.

1. Place cities based on terrain. Found on rivers. Found next to lakes. Jam cities into the coast so you can maximize commerce from sea and ocean squares (and build commercial docks). Found on hills to maximize food. Found on brown instead of green if they lie next to each other to maximize food.

2. Make sure that every square within your cultural borders can get used by some city at some point. If you have a square which can't used by any city even with a hospital at some point, then found a city on or around that square so that you can use it.

This advice is probably the best summary of all the discussions I've read on this subject in the various forum threads. It is really all about food. You may have allowed lots of space in your grid for the cities to grow to size > 12, but without the proper terrain it won't happen. Not all cities can (or will) grow to be metropolises, so don't assume that they can. With some fish or whale resources, it's not hard to get more commerce -- and subsequently, science -- out of 3 small shore towns than from 1 coastal metropolis.

Consider too that your city sizes fluctuate during the first quarter or first third of the game, as you produce settlers. The number of citizens available to work those tiles goes down, and that further hinders the ability of 2-3 loosely spaced cities to gain full advantage of their surroundings.

The second point is also very good to remember. If you're planning for a late game victory (space or UN), you may need the aluminum that pops up in a remote mountain range, or the oil that pops up in a remote desert area. Make sure that every tile can be worked by some city.

[DWetzel]

Originally Posted by Fiddlin Nero

Gotta brag, surprised myself recently when I built a city and got a cultural expansion 2 turns later, know how? or can anyone beat it?

It's already been answered, but an easy way to tie it is to build a city and immediately SGL-rush Temple of Artemis. 4 cpt from ToA + 2 cpt from the temple = easy game.

[scratchthepitch]

You could use tight city placement before the Industrial age, then thin out some cities once you get hospitals so the remaining cities could grow to full size. This would require some planning ahead of time to determine which city placements would be best for those cities you will be keeping throughout the game. The ones that will be abandoned during the Industrial age should probably just get a bare minimum of buildings tailored to the use you will make of these cities. Then when it comes time to abandon them, plan a few turns ahead and start scrapping their buildings one per turn.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally Posted by Fiddlin Nero

Gotta brag, surprised myself recently when I built a city and got a cultural expansion 2 turns later, know how? or can anyone beat it?

On the first turn you rush a Library and on the second a University. That makes 3 cp's for the first turn, and 3 + 4 for the second turn.

It would be possible to get an expansion on the first turn, if you have the Internet that endows every city with a free Research Lab, and in addition to that free lab you rush Shakespeare's Theather.

[Ceoladir]

That would be a wasted SGL.

[Stoertebeker]

Originally Posted by Spoonwood

The only real debate lies between CxxC and CxxxC spacing. ICS (infinite city sprawl or CxC) leads to too much corruption. OCP, that is "optimum city placement" or CxxxxC, leaves too many tiles open for too long, and also if not carefully done leads to tiles within your cultural borders which can't get used ever. Some players might point out that 12 workable tiles per city comes as the ideal, which most experienced players I believe would agree on, but that's somewhere between a CxxC and a CxxxC spacing.

I think the optimum widely depends on two factors: 1. the corruption you will get (which is much more dependent on rank than on distance) and 2., the fertility of the area.

I would tend to say that CxxxC or even CxxxxC (in case of coastal cities) would be the best for the core of the empire (the first 5-10 cities, dependent on map size and difficulty), so that the highly productive cities can grow and expand and you get everything out of your precious non-corrupted tiles. Maybe you waste some space early on, but you will get it back later. The farer away you get, the closer the spacing should be. In remote locations, CxxC or even CxC may be the best option, since everything but 1 shield and 1 beaker will be wasted/corrupted anyway: why use ressources to make someone happy there?

I would tend to leave more space for cities in fertile areas (as you can get more food out of irrigrated grassland than from a city center, thus you can feed more specialists this way) or for cities near to fresh water and less for cities in hostile areas, where you probably just want the city center work.

[creamcheese]

I tend to go for the loosest possible placement in my core that will allow me to use every tile (sometimes I miss a desert or mountain or something, but I am not worried). Outside of that it is all farms with much tighter spacing. The uncorrupted core is responsible for military production and serious commerce after hospitals, and the farms are, well, farms.

Looser spacing has nice advantages after hospitals, like less maintenance and higher production per city. It is probably better to go looser if you are going for space, since a good portion of the game will be post-hospital, and the monster production cities can help you finish the parts before your opponents.

Tighter has advantages for the early game and for military games. Lots of unit support, usage of every tile, and interlocking defenses can win your game early on. No need for late game production monster cities if you win (or are close to winning) before rails.

[AutomatedTeller]

One thing you can do, since settlers are relatively cheap, is to combine the two approaches - figure out where you want the metros after hospitals, and make sure you put cities there - but fill in around them with littler cities that just build wealth or workers or something. that way, you get all the tiles used and, when you get hospitals, you can reduce your filler cities by building workers and join those to the metros.

[del62]

Surely if you have the internet and an SGL and Shakes hasnt been built and you have free artistry, you can get 10cpt on your first turn.

Giving a one turn cultural expansion.

A cultural expansion in two turns is easy to acheive if you have education and lots of money and/or units to disband, library first turn 3cpt, uni second turn 3 + 4cpt, it helps in cost if you are scientific

EDIT : Of course Lord Emsworth has already said this.