Gripes about natives odds and such

[AnotherPacifist]

I've never had so much frustration with barbs other than in this mod. I lost 3 plasma throwers in a row against plain mind worms with odds >90% and almost lost a city due to that. 80% odds are almost like 50/50 and anything less than 60% you're almost doomed automatically. Practically the only time when I can guarantee a win is with odds >98%. Is there anything that is not taken into account when odds are calculated (e.g. psi attack/defense)?
And again, why is there no counter against fungal towers? Why do flame/plasma throwers have no advantage against them (I presume fire works on fungus as well)? Practically I don't dare attack them until I've built a bunker on a hill right next to them (since they can't reach that hill) so that the fungal tower suicides itself trying to bombard it before I attack, otherwise you lose at least 3-4 units (choppers/armor/plasma throwers, even hyperians and rotors) try to attack a fungal tower.

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't know. I have had pretty good succes against native life.
What is your that-planet-love-thing rating?

I can routinely take down mind worms with flame units and have even cleared out fungal towers with those starting scout troops.

The only problems I have are with ships. These are really up vs native life.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by AnotherPacifist

Is there anything that is not taken into account when odds are calculated (e.g. psi attack/defense)?

Very unlikely. You just have a selective memory.

And again, why is there no counter against fungal towers?

You named one in your own post. Plus, you're supposed to lose units when fighting a bunker or fungal tower. The larger production capacity gained by a (well-played) Terraformer strategy still vastly outweighs the extra losses you may take from occasional native life attacks. If you are unable to play as a Terraformer, you could try out a Hybrid game instead. In any case, the native life mechanics are very unlikely to change at this point. They are no problem to deal with if you use the right strategy. Rather than request rule changes on this matter, I would suggest you use this forum to ask advise to people on how to become a better Planetfall player.

[Pickly]

Against Fungal towers: Depending on terrain, try and spread the units out while moving towards a fungal tower. Also, sending in a "sacrificial" unit on its own (to take the bombardments for follow up units) will be useful as well. You will need to attack with a group of units to be sure of destroying a tower, but fortunately they won't move, so you have time to build up a group of units. (the same applies if you are sapproaching a spawn spot with spore launchers.)


As for native units themselves, try and move your units so that you are attacking as much as possible rather than defending. Otherwise, you'll want to use all the same terrain tricks that are used in regular combat.

[AnotherPacifist]

I can easily do it as a terraformer later on (when I have bunkers and can produce troops in 1-2 turns), it's during the vulnerable time when I'm still expanding and have already 3-4 flame throwers in a city BUT NO BUNKERS and then all of a sudden, with a -0 or -1 planet attitude, a fungal tower with 2 mindworms and 1 spore launcher is right next to my city and spawns AGAIN the next turn--that destroys you.

But even then, the -4 to -5 planet attitude is probably what kills my odds, but it doesn't show it in the calculations (there's simply no way I can lose 3x in a row with odds >90%). What I'm trying to say is that other mods (like RFC and Dune and HoTK) I never run into such reality contradictions with probability calculations--I routinely win if odds are >80%, only rarely do I lose but I damage that barb unit severely. If I lose in this mod with good odds, the mind worms often retain more than half their strength!

And yes, I'm an OK player (I've won with all the main factions on monarch), but for new comers who don't understand the planet attitude thing it will be frustrating to see themselves lose despite odds.

@PPQ Purple--you're probably using your 3 lucky strikes against barbs. And don't ask me why, the unity rovers have far better odds attacking than flame throwers, and that's why I never promote them and keep them around even when I have rotors. And I agree--submarines, destroyers and hunters (even promoted with the heart thingee) are almost useless against sealife--I just use rotors after I bombard them.

[Maniac]

You only get fungal blooms near bases of planet value -2 or lower.

How low your planet value goes is completely under your control: it is mostly affected by population size and terrain improvements. You can control your population by building colony pods or formers (which can remove the fungus which cause fungal blooms). You can hold off from massbuilding farms and mines until the fungus is cleared. So if your planet value goes into the negative, it's a choice you make, not something which is forced upon you.

[AnotherPacifist]

You only get fungal blooms near bases of planet value -2 or lower.

Are you sure? Because I distinctly remember having a -1 (just barely transitioned from -0) and having that fungal tower right next to my newly conquered Believer base, which made me abandon my first Peacekeeper game.

On the other hand, I love those situations where the fungal blooms occur in a secluded area (i.e. surrounded by hills and coast) so that they can't escape, and that just makes blooms elsewhere much less likely. I had like 9 native units there trapped which I could just ignore.

[Maniac]

It appears I was wrong. You don't even get fungal blooms at Planet -2:

if ((getEcoDamage() - 2) > GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getTrainPercent(), "Maniac"))

[tinstaafl]

To clarify, because i have been wondering about this in my last game: Local fungal blooms depend on the current eco-damage of a base (red circle arrow thingy), NOT on "planet attitude" (red heart, which is an aggregate over time and bases)? Do i have this right?

Oh, and on the way mindworms are in planetfall, i also really like how factions start close to each other and half of Planet is wilderness as a consequence, simple but genious.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by tinstaafl

To clarify, because i have been wondering about this in my last game: Local fungal blooms depend on the current eco-damage of a base (red circle arrow thingy), NOT on "planet attitude" (red heart, which is an aggregate over time and bases)? Do i have this right?

Yep.

[Pfeffersack]

Originally Posted by AnotherPacifist

But even then, the -4 to -5 planet attitude is probably what kills my odds, but it doesn't show it in the calculations (there's simply no way I can lose 3x in a row with odds >90%). What I'm trying to say is that other mods (like RFC and Dune and HoTK) I never run into such reality contradictions with probability calculations--I routinely win if odds are >80%, only rarely do I lose but I damage that barb unit severely. If I lose in this mod with good odds, the mind worms often retain more than half their strength!

You can lose 3 90%+ fights in a row, I had experienced that as well in the past. For example you will lose 3 95% fights in a row with 1:8000. Unlikely, but far from impossible. For 90% fights is is just 1:1000. If you odds are 80%, you will lose one battle out of five. When I go for a Fungaltower, I need most of the time 2 units (Flamethrower or upgrades) - even if the odds of the first are between 5-10% (and believe me, I occasionally even win such a fight! ), the second usually has 40-90% win chance. Of course, it does happen that you don't do a scratch with the first, sometimes twice... It is all in the range of good and bad luck for me and I don't believe the RNG is bugged in any way - that discussion is as old as Civ4, but never anyone suceeded in proofing that there is something wrong.

[AnotherPacifist]

Just won my first Emperor game with the Spartans. It's just insane having to deal with natives spawning EVERY TURN. Finally had to just build bunkers everywhere, have police state and put a unit on EVERY TILE so that they can't spawn on land. Can't we have a tech that dramatically decreases the senseless destruction by natives? It's tedious and does not add to the mod except scare noobs away. (I think the death tally beats my one other record with world conquest in RFC as the Romans)

And if anybody doubts that spawning points can occur at -1:

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't know. I have been running a game with Yang, full teraformer economy and all. I cleared all the fungus from my entire continent (Planet map scenario) and I think that the whole Relentless attacks by mind worms adds to the flavor.

Do not change it ever!

[tinstaafl]

a) That's the wrong -1 in your screenshot. The relevant value is your current ecodamage in a base. Scroll 3 posts up from your latest post.
b) Are you aware that blooms will only happen next to existing fungus? So keep it out of your borders first and foremost, and away from your borders second. Culture will help with the first part under terraformed, remember? There's also a nice a synergy there, psych chaplain specialists produce culture (which will remove fungus in your borders, all the while extending them) and ther great person type can be used to bulb techs from the terraforming path.

So basically, before you have cleared away ALL nearby fungus, don't raise your ecodamage in a base too high, or be prepared to build lots of units.

Also, i checked, and at least in my version, the planet attitude factor for psi combat IS shown on odds calculation. I had a 7%modifier with a -2 planet rating, it was shown in the red section, the one for the worm.

Do not change it ever!

+1

[PPQ_Purple]

When runing a teraformer game, think of 3+ flame units in each city.
+1 per borhole or other heavy eco damage improvement.

It always worked for me.

[AnotherPacifist]

Are you aware that blooms will only happen next to existing fungus?

Completely untrue. Blooms will happen in the middle of your empire with fully terraformed lands (farms, mines, greenhouses, field labs). I don't know where you got this from.

[tinstaafl]

Sorry, if you've seen it happen i may be wrong (i'll admit i haven't played the mod as much as you state you have, mostly i just played the first 200 turns 6 times since v11 because inntertrun times get a little high on my machine later in the game) but i've never seen it happen - and it does say so in slugwalk's beginner guide. Actually it really only states that blooms will happen not far from existing fungus, not necessarily right next to it, so i misremembered it, too.

Anyways, i have never seen blooms in the middle of my cleared territory and ecodamage in my bases has gone well past 10 red, at the same time i HAVE gotten blooms next to fungus, and continously at that (meaning blooming again at the same spot soon after killing them all) so i don't know what's going on if it blooms right next to a cleared out university central or sparta command for you.

[Maniac]

Please provide a save just prior to a fungal bloom happening despite no fungus being adjacent.

[AnotherPacifist]

Which one of the last 100 turns of my game do you want? Just move any of my soldiers away from Commander's Keep and you should see a spawn fairly soon.

Do you count fungus on sea tiles as adjacent? Even then, I remember having fungus blooms next to Suvival Base (which has LOONG been terraformed) on a mine no less, hence I had troops there too.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by AnotherPacifist

Do you count fungus on sea tiles as adjacent?

Yes.

Even then, I remember having fungus blooms next to Suvival Base (which has LOONG been terraformed) on a mine no less, hence I had troops there too.

Please provide a save of this happening, one where I just need to click End Turn.