New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

[veBear]

Scrap them for now, but include it in a module, that's what i say.

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by veBear

Scrap them for now, but include it in a module, that's what i say.

Problem with that is that only the leaders in that module would have the trait.
Adding a modular civ/leader pack with its own new trait just seems... silly. Either add a trait to the base game, or don't.

[veBear]

What i mean here is that with the module, other LH's could also get it, such as Temujin and Sitting Bull.

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by The Capo

Nomadic is all but dropped, unless someone can come up with a good reason to add it and some meaningful features I don't know if it will make it.

Originally Posted by The Almighty dF

Nomadic represents a large number of included and planned leaders. Our Mongols, our native americans, our tribalistic factions.
I'm even willing to say we may have more Nomadic leaders than Seafaring.

I would also vote for adding it. I think there were a few quite good ideas for bonuses.


EDIT: These were the ideas that came up, more than enough to choose from

• -50% maintenance cost from distance of cities
• +50-100% gold from pillaging OR free looting promotion (mounted, melee) - altough there is no looting promotion in Diplomacy yet
• increased mobility or withdrawal chance for some unit types, maybe with flanking promotion (mounted, naval)
• reduced war weariness - about 20-25% sounds good to me
• +1 happiness per stable OR DPS for them

EDIT2: This seems quite a warmonger's trait, as it should be in the first place.
The only thing what is important if we choose to add Nomadic to Diplomacy II, to go with reasonably generic bonuses (not just all mounted everywhere), so it would suit more leaders

[The Capo]

Well I'd like to get some comments on the Seafaring and Nationalistic traits posted so we can get Xyth to start working on them. As far as Nomadic goes, I am willing to add it, but let's try to streamline it first. That list Absinthe posted is fine with me, but we should definitely cut it down, so let's start cutting it down. I don't really know where to go on this, so if others could chime in that'd be good.

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, this is your last suggestion:

Originally Posted by The Capo

Okay, so once more, I'm going to try to spell out the new traits then:

Seafaring/Enterprising

• +1 Movement for all Naval Units
• Double production speed of Harbor, Lighthouse, Dry Dock and Customs House
• +1/2 Promotions for Scouts/Explorers (or free XP, haven't refined this yet)
• +1 Trade routes in all cities

Nationalistic

• +1 Happiness +1 Culture per National Wonder
• +2 Espionage points in each city
• Double production speed of Jail, Security Bureau, Intelligence Agency, and Mind Control Center
• Minimal wait times between revolutions

.

I'm basically statisfied with these.
Only a few small things I would consider:

For Seafaring I would drop DPS of Lighthouse. It's not really connected to seafaring/trading in the game, because of the +1 food it provides.
Of course in reality it would be very cool for seafaring, but in Civ I would leave this bonus to Expansive
Also, I was considering DPS of Market because of the increased trade (so we would get another bonus which is good for all cities, not just coastal ones), but if everyone else is against this, drop it too...
For the free promotion to explorers and scouts I would go with Mobility and Sentry. Not big promotions, but very useful for them, especially combined

For Nationalistic I'm sure you thought +1 happy and +1 culture per National Wonder in city built only, but wanted to point out that it's missing from there.
Also, a very cool addon would be a free promotion for spies, further encouraging the players to use them more

[The Capo]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

Only a few small things I would consider:

For Seafaring I would drop DPS of Lighthouse. It's not really connected to seafaring/trading in the game, because of the +1 food it provides.
Of course in reality it would be very cool for seafaring, but in Civ I would leave this bonus to Expansive
Also, I was considering DPS of Market because of the increased trade (so we would get another bonus which is good for all cities, not just coastal ones), but if everyone else is against this, drop it too...

I'll remove Lighthouse, but not market, I think that goes a bit too far. Although I could be swayed to add it. No other civic DPs it right?

For the free promotion to explorers and scouts I would go with Mobility and Sentry. Not big promotions, but very useful for them, especially combined.

Remind me what sentry does, and if it is fine I'll add it. I was thinking March would be good too.

For Nationalistic I'm sure you thought +1 happy and +1 culture per National Wonder in city built only, but wanted to point out that it's missing from there.

Definitely, sorry about that.

Also, a very cool addon would be a free promotion for spies, further encouraging the players to use them more

We could do that when the spy promotions come into play. I was thinking of giving them the "Loyalty" promotion anyway, where they never reveal their nationality.

Okay, awesome. In the next post I'll revise the list, we're ALMOST finished with these two, and if we get Nomadic sorted out I can get Xyth (or someone else if he is unwilling) to get these coded and ready to go.

[The Capo]

Okay, revised traits with what I like for Nomadic included:

Seafaring/Enterprising (I'm starting to like Seafaring more again):

• +1 Movement for all naval units
• DP of Harbor, Customs House and Dry Dock
• Free Mobility and Sentry Promotions for Scouts/Explorers
• +1 Trade Route in every city

Nationalistic:

• +1 Happiness +1 Culture per NW in city built
• +2 Espionage Points in all cities
• Double Production Speed of Jail, Mind Control Center, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau
• Minimal wait times between revolutions

Nomadic:

• -50% Maintenence cost from distance from capital
• Free looting promotion (we'll add it) for melee and mounted units
• +1 Happiness from Stables OR -25/50% War Weariness OR All units ignore terrain movement costs

[Vortilex]

Hmm, I'm torn between -50% War Weariness and All units ignore terrain movement costs.

[MadmanOfALeader]

How do you like this for Menelik?

<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_FIRST_CONTACT_LEADER_MENELIK_1</Tag>
<English>Welcome to [OUR_CIV_SHORT], stranger! I have heard of your advanced people. Would you like to share your findings with the [OUR_CIV_ADJ] people? Or you just here to wage your wars of imperalism just like everybody who's walked through the door?</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_REFUSE_TO_TALK_LEADER_MENELIK_1</Tag>
<English>Take your imperialistic aspirations elsewhere!</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_NO_PEACE_LEADER_MENELIK_1</Tag>
<English>You wish for [OUR_CIV_SHORT] to surrender? Well, so does everybody else!</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_GREETINGS_ATT_FR_LEADER_MENELIK_1</Tag>
<English>[CT_NAME] is here again! What new and modern technologies do you bring to [OUR_CIV_SHORT]?</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_GREETINGS_ATT_FUR_LEADER_MENELIK_1 </Tag>
<English>And you call US primitive peoples... well, now that [CT_NAME] is here, I suppose I can grin and bear it.</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_DEMAND_TRIBUTE_POWER_WEAKER_MENELI K_ 1</Tag>
<English>Could you please give us something to help all our starving children? Please, think of the starving children...</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_DEMAND_TRIBUTE_POWER_EQUAL_MENELIK _1 </Tag>
<English>Surely you want to help us become a modern nation, don't you, [CT_NAME]?</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>AI_DIPLO_DEMAND_TRIBUTE_POWER_STRONGER_MENELI K_1</Tag>
<English>Give this to me, [CT_NAME]. If I could defeat more modern armies than mine, then your civ is a piece of cake.</English>
</TEXT>

[Vortilex]

I can make German and Spanish versions of those (the grammar may be a bit off though)

[MadmanOfALeader]

Knock yoursef out, however, remember that the Spanish used in civ is a bit old fashioned and Peninsular.

[Vortilex]

yeah, I've always wondered why they keep saying "vosotros" but then, in Peru we don't even use that except in Church.

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by The Capo

I'll remove Lighthouse, but not market, I think that goes a bit too far. Although I could be swayed to add it. No other civic DPs it right?

Yeah, none of the traits have DPS of Market so far. I would vote for it, but not entirely sure it's the best solution.
So, even if we do add, we have to test this out very carefully.
I'm starting to worry that Seafaring will be a little overpowered on coastal starts if it has this extra bonus as well

Originally Posted by The Capo

Remind me what sentry does, and if it is fine I'll add it. I was thinking March would be good too.

Sentry adds +1 line of sight. Perfect for Explorers and Scouts

Originally Posted by The Capo

We could do that when the spy promotions come into play. I was thinking of giving them the "Loyalty" promotion anyway, where they never reveal their nationality.

Cool, I like that very much

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by The Capo

Okay, revised traits with what I like for Nomadic included:

Seafaring/Enterprising (I'm starting to like Seafaring more again):

• +1 Movement for all naval units
• DP of Harbor, Customs House and Dry Dock
• Free Mobility and Sentry Promotions for Scouts/Explorers
• +1 Trade Route in every city

Nationalistic:

• +1 Happiness +1 Culture per NW in city built
• +2 Espionage Points in all cities
• Double Production Speed of Jail, Mind Control Center, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau
• Minimal wait times between revolutions

Nomadic:

• -50% Maintenence cost from distance from capital
• Free looting promotion (we'll add it) for melee and mounted units
• +1 Happiness from Stables OR -25/50% War Weariness OR All units ignore terrain movement costs

I'll agree to these.
I'm still not a fan of the +1 TR, but I can see I'm in the minority. I just ask that the name be kept to Seafaring rather than Enterprising.
Nationalistic and Nomadic are -great-.

So... these three have my vote.
Once we've agreed on them, we should start talking about leaders that need them.

Off the top of my head, here's my recommendations
For nationalistic:
Mahmoud Ahmadenijad (Nat/Cha or Nat/Ind)
Mao Zedong (Nat/Org)
Stalin (Nat/Ind)
Hitler (Nat/Agg)
Peron (Nat/???)
Franco (Nat/Cha or... since he attempted at least... Nat/Fin.)
Hirohito (Nat/Imp)

For nomadic:
Genghis (Nom/Exp)
Crazy Horse (Nom/Agg)
Hiawatha (Nom/Phi)
Logan (Nom/Spi)
Pachacuti (Nom/Imp If anyone deserves this combo, it's him. The Incan Empire that he founded is so... odd, in formation.)
Shaka (Nom/Agg)

Seafaring:
Joao (Sea/Exp)
Victoria (Sea/Imp)
Dido (Sea/Fin)
Harald (Sea/Cha)
Henry the Navigator (Sea/Org ...Oh god he's a scientologist.)
Kamehameha (Sea/Prot)
Maurits van Nassau (Sea/Agg)
Salamasina (Sea/Cre)



Or my suggestions as a whole (bold means I'm suggesting a change)
* Abu Bakr (Arabia) - Spiritual/Imperialist
* Konrad Adenauer (Germany) - Spiritual/Organized
* Afonso Henriques (Portugal) - Protective/Expansive
* Ahuitzotl (Aztecs) - Imperialist/Charismatic
* Amenhotep III (Egypt) - Industrious/Charismatic
* Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey) - Protective/Charismatic
* Basil II (Byzantium) - Aggressive/Expansive
* David Ben-Gurion (Israel) - Industrious/Protective
* Canute the Great (Vikings) - Aggressive/Seafaring
* Cetshwayo kaMpande (Zululand) - Aggressive/Organized
* Charles V (Spain) - Organized/Financial
* Empress Dowager Cixi (China) - Protective/Organized
* Chandragupta Maurya (India) - Expansive/Imperialist
* Cleomenes of Sparta (Greece) - Aggressive/Protective
* Clovis I (Franks) - Organized/Imperialist
* Constantine (Byzantium) - Spiritual/Organized
* Crazy Horse (Sioux) - Nomadic/Aggressive
* David (Israel) - Spiritual/Creative
* Dido (Carthage) - Seafaring/Financial
* Francisco Franco (Spain) - Nationalistic/Charismatic
* Harald Hardrada (Vikings) - Seafaring/Charismatic
* Henry the Navigator (Portugal) - Seafaring/Organized
* Henry VIII (England) - Organized/Creative
* Hiawatha (Iroquois) - Nomadic/Philosophical
* Hirohito (Japan) - Imperialist/Nationalistic
* Adolf Hitler (Germany) - Aggressive/Nationalistic
* Itzcoatl (Aztecs) - Industrious/Expansive
* Ivan the Terrible (Russia) - Protective/Expansive
* Jayavarman VII (Khmer) - Imperialist/Spiritual
* Jingu (Japan) - Organized/Expansive
* Johan deWitt (Netherlands) - Philosophical/Financial
* Joshua (Israel) - Spiritual/Aggressive
* Kamehameha (Polynesia) - Seafaring/Protective
* Kim Jong-il (Korea) - Aggressive/Organized
* Lalibela (Ethiopia) - Industrious/Spiritual
* Logan (Iroquois) - Nomadic/Spiritual
* Marcus Aurelius (Rome) - Philosophical/Imperialist
* Maurits van Nassau (Netherlands) - Aggressive/Seafaring
* Meiji (Japan) - Industrious/Organized
* Menelik II (Ethiopia) - Ind/Cha
* Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam) - Philosophical/Organized
* Gamal Abdel Nasser (Arabia) - Industrious/Charismatic
* Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon) - Industrious/Imperialist
* Jawaharlal Nehru (India) - Philosophical/Charismatic
* Ogedei Khan (Mongolia) - Charismatic/Industrious
* Pachacuti (Inca) - Nomadic/Imperialist
* Philip II (Spain) - Seafaring/Imperialist
* Pol Pot (Khmer) - Protective/Aggressive
* Ptolemy Soter (Egypt) - Philosophical/Protective
* Pyrrhus of Epirus (Greece) - Imperialist/Charismatic
* Ronald W. Reagan (America) - Charismatic/Financial
* Cardinal Richelieu (France) - Spiritual/Charismatic
* Salamasina (Polynesia) - Seafaring/Creative
* Sargon of Akkad (Sumeria) - Aggressive/Spiritual
* Scipio Africanus (Rome) - Expansive/Charismatic
* Sejong (Korea) - Creative/Philosophical
* Haile Selassie (Ethiopia) - Spiritual/Philosophical
* Smoke Jaguar (Maya) - Industrious/Aggressive
* Solomon (Israel) - Philosophical/Expansive
* Sundiata Keita (Mali) - Organized/Charismatic
* Tang Taizong (China) - Financial/Imperialist
* Trung Sisters (Vietnam) - Charismatic/Protective
* Vercingetorix (Celts) - Charismatic/Organized
* Xerxes (Persia) - Imperialist/Industrious
* Lady Xoc (Maya) - Spiritual/Charismatic

[AbsintheRed]

I would also consider adding Nationalistic to Kim Jong-il, Pinochet, Mobutu, and Tito

EDIT: maybe even to Pol Pot and Theodora

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

I would also consider adding Nationalistic to Kim Jong-il, Pinochet, Mobutu, and Tito

EDIT: maybe even to Pol Pot and Theodora

Agreed.
Kim Jong-Il would probably be Nat/Cre (The man kidnapped a director and forced him to make a knockoff of Gojira, funny little crazy guy.)

Mobutu... Nat/Org. Pinochet... hrm. I'm not sure waht to put for Pinochet, Tito, and Theodora.

Pol Pot probably deserves Phi/Nat.

[AbsintheRed]

For Seafaring, I agree with all 8 who you wrote before (maybe Elizabeth instead of Victoria, I'm not sure on this one)
I was also thinking of Charles V or Philip II (Spain needs a Seafaring leader), Suryvarman (instead of his expansive trait), Canute and Hiram

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

For Seafaring, I agree with all 8 who you wrote before (maybe Elizabeth instead of Victoria, I'm not sure on this one)
I was also thinking of Charles V or Philip II (Spain needs a Seafaring leader), Suryvarman (instead of his expansive trait), Canute and Hiram

I changed Canute and Phillip in my bigger list, left 'em out of the smaller list by mistake.
I'm not sure about Sury, as I'm already happy with Exp/Cre.
Charles V I could go either way on.

[AbsintheRed]

Don't forget Hiram
And maybe even Johan de Witt can go as a Seafaring leader