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Old Mar 14, 2010, 06:28 PM   #21
AbsintheRed
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Personally I would avoid both agrarian and scientific based traits.
Btw, I think if we add 3 more traits, then at least some minor changes to base traits will be necessary.
Assuming we vote scientific to get in (hopefully not), then we have to move the DPS of universities to this trait, and find something else for Philosophical to keep it balanced.
Same situation with the new Seafaring/Exploring trait and Harbors (currently DPS with Expansive)
So some minor changes like that will be unavoidable IMO
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 06:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Xyth View Post
In all my experiments with traits the ones I've found the most overpowering are not the Scientific ones, it's the Agrarian style ones. The extra growth just gets insane and exponentially out of control very quickly. Flood Plains + Biology = Super Massive cities , even with the threshold set as high as 4 or 5. It's a huge advantage in the late game but also a massive advantage in the mid game as cities can grow so very quickly. I'd avoid any sort of '+1 food per tile with X' altogether.

What I'm using atm is a single extra food on the central tile of each city, and even this is quite strong. It allows the city grow a little faster but at a steady rather than exponential rate. It also allows cities to flourish better on less than ideal tiles like hills or tundra and in practice seems to let all cities be one size bigger than they would for a leader without the trait. As you can see, even a single extra food is quite a big bonus. I may change it to a granary style effect instead, shall see, but what's vital is that any food/growth bonus is steady and not exponential as growth is already exponential by design in BTS.


As for a Progressive/Scientific style trait, what I'm experimenting with atm is a free Scientist slot in each city. Note that it's a specialist slot, not a free specialist. So far I'm really liking it as it gives a moderate science and GP boost but you have to grow the city to a reasonable size first in order to support it or you risk sacrificing too much growth.
I could agree with that Progressive trait. I also on Agrarian.

So how about this:
Agrarian: +1 food per city, +1 happiness for granary.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:10 PM   #23
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Man, this is why I was trying to avoid adding traits. Because not only do I have to add them, but then I have to change others. Okay, so far I think we have a consensus on a few things:
  • Seafaring should definitely be a new trait.
  • Secretive/Securitive/Diplomatic whatever espionage trait will be a new trait.
  • The third one looks like it will be a mess to figure out.

I am not really worried about having 13. But on the same note I am not averse to having 14 traits either. And in my mind an EVEN number of traits is probably for the best anyway. So we can discuss a third and figure out what the other two should be.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:22 PM   #24
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Man, this is why I was trying to avoid adding traits. Because not only do I have to add them, but then I have to change others. Okay, so far I think we have a consensus on a few things:
  • Seafaring should definitely be a new trait.
  • Secretive/Securitive/Diplomatic whatever espionage trait will be a new trait.
  • The third one looks like it will be a mess to figure out.

I am not really worried about having 13. But on the same note I am not averse to having 14 traits either. And in my mind an EVEN number of traits is probably for the best anyway. So we can discuss a third and figure out what the other two should be.
So 5 new traits?

Seafaring (Faster ships, drill 1 for said ships, cheap harbor/lighthouse)

Secretive (Espionage bonus + less unhappiness. If that isn't possible, then just +happiness and have the explanation be "We love Dear Leader" or something.)

Progressive (as described earlier, with just an extra scientist slot per city, then maybe cheap observatories/labs.)

Diplomatic (free trade route, relations bonus)

Nationalistic (50% off national wonder construction, +1 happiness per national wonder)
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:47 PM   #25
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I think I'd like to cap it at three. Five is a bit more than I'd like to have. Three is really pushing it for me honestly.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:50 PM   #26
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I think I'd like to cap it at three. Five is a bit more than I'd like to have. Three is really pushing it for me honestly.
Ah, misunderstood.
I'd suggest of those: Nationalistic, Secretive, and Seafaring.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:56 PM   #27
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I would suggest against a "Secretive" trait, as in my opinion it is concept-wise too similar to the "Protective" and "Nationalistic" traits. Then again, just my opinion.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:56 PM   #28
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Nationalistc doesn't sound bad.
The +1 happy for national wonders (of course just in the city you build them) is a good bonus for start, because not only it would encourage both the AI and the player to build those wonders.
It would also benefit smaller civs more, because they have fewer cities, so they will eventually have happiness bonus in all of their cities not in just a few of them...
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:57 PM   #29
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I would suggest against a "Secretive" trait, as in my opinion it is concept-wise too similar to the "Protective" and "Nationalistic" traits. Then again, just my opinion.
I've gotta disagree on Protective, personally. However I do agree that Secretive could be merged with Nationalistic.
Espionage bonus + discount on national wonders.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by cybrxkhan View Post
I would suggest against a "Secretive" trait, as in my opinion it is concept-wise too similar to the "Protective" and "Nationalistic" traits. Then again, just my opinion.
We could always combine the nationalistc and secretive traits.
Espionage bonus with a little nationalism flavour. Like the one TAdF suggested before

EDIT: LOL, I was way too slow!
But we agree on that one
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:01 PM   #31
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I will vouch for Nationalistic + Secretive. In WoL the Nationalistic trait gives +2 espionage, anyhow. It makes reasonable sense, anyhow. A lot of the "secretive" leaders we think of i.e. those silly dictators like Hitler and Stalin were either nationalistic or used Nationalism as a great tool.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:03 PM   #32
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I will vouch for Nationalistic + Secretive. In WoL the Nationalistic trait gives +2 espionage, anyhow. It makes reasonable sense, anyhow. A lot of the "secretive" leaders we think of i.e. those silly dictators like Hitler and Stalin were either nationalistic or used Nationalism as a great tool.
This is true.
This way Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc. can get a trait that encompasses more of what they were known for.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:04 PM   #33
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I think we're getting somewhere with this.

On a side note: Look at all these posts so far! I literally just set this up today. Could you imagine if all of these posts were made in the old thread today?
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:05 PM   #34
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The infamous Velasco Abelardo :P
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:08 PM   #35
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The infamous Velasco Abelardo :P
Who is that? Anyone else just Wikipedia this guy?
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:10 PM   #36
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Who is that? Anyone else just Wikipedia this guy?
He ruled Peru, and his last name was misspelled.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:12 PM   #37
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Oh, Alvarado. I know who that is. I just figured someone from Lima, Peru wouldn't have made such a mistake.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:12 PM   #38
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He had two last names, and is a personal enemy.
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:13 PM   #39
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I actually couldn't remember how to spell his second last name
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Old Mar 14, 2010, 08:17 PM   #40
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Fair enough.

Okay, so it looks like we are going with Seafaring and Nationalistic. Should we stop while we're ahead or try for a third one? And if we do go for a third one, I want to get some good arguments for them here. So, if you've given a suggestion and you think it has been shot down, think again and sell it to me!
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