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Old Mar 17, 2010, 08:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Capo View Post
CURRENT LIST OF NEW LEADERS

Here is the current list of new leaders in Diplomacy II:
  • Abu Bakr (Arabia) - Spiritual/Imperialist
  • Konrad Adenauer (Germany) - Spiritual/Organized
  • Afonso Henriques (Portugal) - Protective/Expansive
  • Ahuitzotl (Aztecs) - Imperialist/Charismatic
  • Amenhotep III (Egypt) - Industrious/Charismatic
  • Askia Muhammed (Mali) - Expansive/Philosophical
  • Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey) - Protective/Charismatic
  • Basil II (Byzantium) - Aggressive/Expansive
  • David Ben-Gurion (Israel) - Industrious/Protective
  • Canute the Great (Vikings) - Aggressive/Creative
  • Cetshwayo kaMpande (Zululand) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Charles V (Spain) - Organized/Financial
  • Empress Dowager Cixi (China) - Protective/Organized
  • Chandragupta Maurya (India) - Expansive/Imperialist
  • Cleomenes of Sparta (Greece) - Aggressive/Protective
  • Clovis I (Franks) - Organized/Imperialist
  • Constantine (Byzantium) - Spiritual/Organized
  • Crazy Horse (Sioux) - Charismatic/Aggressive
  • David (Israel) - Spiritual/Creative
  • Dido (Carthage) - Creative/Financial
  • Francisco Franco (Spain) - Protective/Charismatic
  • Harald Hardrada (Vikings) - Expansive/Charismatic
  • Henry the Navigator (Portugal) - Expansive/Organized
  • Henry VIII (England) - Organized/Creative
  • Hiawatha (Iroquois) - Spiritual/Philosophical
  • Hirohito (Japan) - Imperialist/Financial
  • Adolf Hitler (Germany) - Aggressive/Charismatic
  • Itzcoatl (Aztecs) - Industrious/Expansive
  • Ivan the Terrible (Russia) - Protective/Expansive
  • Jayavarman VII (Khmer) - Imperialist/Spiritual
  • Jingu (Japan) - Organized/Expansive
  • Johan deWitt (Netherlands) - Philosophical/Financial
  • Joshua (Israel) - Spiritual/Aggressive
  • Kamehameha (Polynesia) - Expansive/Protective
  • Kim Jong-il (Korea) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Lalibela (Ethiopia) - Industrious/Spiritual
  • Logan (Iroquois) - Creative/Protective
  • Marcus Aurelius (Rome) - Philosophical/Imperialist
  • Maurits van Nassau (Netherlands) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Meiji (Japan) - Industrious/Organized
  • Menelik II (Ethiopia) - ?/?
  • Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam) - Philosophical/Organized
  • Gamal Abdel Nasser (Arabia) - Industrious/Charismatic
  • Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon) - Industrious/Imperialist
  • Jawaharlal Nehru (India) - Philosophical/Charismatic
  • Ogedei Khan (Mongolia) - Charismatic/Industrious
  • Pachacuti (Inca) - Creative/Charismatic
  • Philip II (Spain) - Creative/Imperialist
  • Pol Pot (Khmer) - Protective/Aggressive
  • Ptolemy Soter (Egypt) - Philosophical/Protective
  • Pyrrhus of Epirus (Greece) - Imperialist/Charismatic
  • Ronald W. Reagan (America) - Charismatic/Financial
  • Cardinal Richelieu (France) - Spiritual/Charismatic
  • Salamasina (Polynesia) - Organized/Creative
  • Sargon of Akkad (Sumeria) - Aggressive/Spiritual
  • Scipio Africanus (Rome) - Expansive/Charismatic
  • Sejong (Korea) - Creative/Philosophical
  • Haile Selassie (Ethiopia) - Spiritual/Philosophical
  • Smoke Jaguar (Maya) - Industrious/Aggressive
  • Solomon (Israel) - Philosophical/Expansive
  • Sundiata Keita (Mali) - Organized/Charismatic
  • Sunni Ali Ber (Mali) - ?/?
  • Tang Taizong (China) - Financial/Imperialist
  • Trung Sisters (Vietnam) - Charismatic/Protective
  • Vercingetorix (Celts) - Charismatic/Organized
  • Xerxes (Persia) - Imperialist/Industrious
  • Lady Xoc (Maya) - Spiritual/Charismatic
Christ! That's many Leaders! How are you going to get unique personalities for all of those!?

And for that seafaring trait of your's. I would say the last bonus could be something like ocean tiles cost 0.66 movement points to enter, so if you have a ship with 2 movement it will actaully be able to move 3 tiles when on ocean... or +1 on coast tiles or the reduce maintaince by 50% in oversea colonies bonus.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 08:58 AM   #102
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Thanks for bumping the trait discussions
At least you could have put spoiler tags around them :S

Btw, since we are in the leaders sub thread, where is your Gerhardsen and new Canute LHs?
No news of those for a few months now...
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 09:30 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by AbsintheRed View Post
Btw, since we are in the leaders sub thread, where is your Gerhardsen and new Canute LHs?
No news of those for a few months now...
Good call, we want answers veBear!
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 01:09 PM   #104
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Eh... i've been lazy...
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 02:10 PM   #105
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Alright, well anyway, here are the last two suggested ideas. This is first from AbsintheRed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsintheRed View Post
I think for Nationalistic we are closing for a final decision.
Right now my suggestions:
  • +2 espionage points/city
  • +1 happy per NW (in city built)
  • DPS for Jail, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, and Mind Control Center
  • No wait time between revolutions
And this was what I last said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Capo View Post
So here is what I think Seafaring should be:
  • +1 Movement for Naval Units
  • Double Production: Harbor, Customs House, Drydock (no Lighthouse or Market)
  • And I'd say one more, which can be picked from these: Promotion to Explorers/Scouts, +1 Trade Routes Per City (although I want this to focus on sailing, not sailing for profit, if you want a civ like that you should pick a Seafaring/Financial leader), -50% Maintenance for Colonies
So let's move on with the discussion now. I like Absinthe's suggestions for Nationailstic, the only issue I forsee is that we will not know how truly worthwhile it is until the Spy Promotions are installed.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 02:44 PM   #106
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Here's my suggestions for the last seafearing bonus:
- Ocean tiles only cost 2/3 OR 1/2 movement points to enter.
or
- +1 per coastal-tile in all coastal cities. (this bonus should count only for those within the original city borders and not expanding into the T-Cross. Also only counts for coast-tiles, not ocean.)

Otherwise i think you -50% maintaince in oversea colonies looks good.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 02:51 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by veBear View Post
Here's my suggestions for the last seafearing bonus:
- Ocean tiles only cost 2/3 OR 1/2 movement points to enter.
or
- +1 per coastal-tile in all coastal cities. (this bonus should count only for those within the original city borders and not expanding into the T-Cross. Also only counts for coast-tiles, not ocean.)

Otherwise i think you -50% maintaince in oversea colonies looks good.
I think the first one is pretty much covered with the +1 movement for naval ships. As far as the second one goes, I think maybe +1 gold/commerce on each coastal tile is more appropriate and realistic to the trait than one hammer. I could potentially consider that one.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 02:52 PM   #108
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For Seafaring, I don't mind not having DPS for markets.
But then I would add both the +1 trade routes and the promotions for scouts/explorers for the reasons I already mentioned. That makes 4 bonuses, same as Nationalistic.
Btw, Xyth already mentioned that, but for Agressive give DPS of Stable instead of the Drydock, for Expansive give DPS of Aqueduct instead of the Harbor.


Also, are we still on adding a 3rd trait? If yes, I don't know the perfect word for this in english, but I'm thinking of something along the lines of Enlightened. The leaders with this could handle even some bad things easier (agressive war and similar things) knowing it will lead to greater glory.
I mean some sort of War Weariness bonus, but could have increased Golden Age length too.
Some better ideas are definitely needed here, but maybe it's a start...
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 02:57 PM   #109
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I think the first one is pretty much covered with the +1 movement for naval ships. As far as the second one goes, I think maybe +1 gold/commerce on each coastal tile is more appropriate and realistic to the trait than one hammer. I could potentially consider that one.
Yeah, the +1 movement is good enough.
But the second would be way overpowered. If you want to go with any type of commerce and trade bonus, I would definitely go with +1 trade routes. That fits the theme best, and it seems fairly well balanced. Of course we have to test this out too...
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 03:39 PM   #110
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Enlightened is a word in English, the literal meaning of the word in English is basically "Educated," or more appropriately "wise." So by description alone this would be similar to the scientific trait. Enlightened of course would also mean different things in different times, today it would probably be someone who is relatively progressive, at least in social issues, whereas in different times it might mean something else. I don't really know how we could really make a trait for being Enlightened without jutting into the realms of Philosophical/Scientific etc.

I think in general we have a pretty good set going though, and as I have said before; if there is no reason to add a third new trait we shouldn't force it.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 04:14 PM   #111
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Apologies if this is obvious, but I think this needs to be stressed:

It's vital to remember the difference between commerce and gold. Commerce is a yield you get from tiles and other sources, whereas gold is just one thing you can turn commerce into. With the suggestion of +1 commerce from sea tiles (+1 gold cannot be added to tiles as it is not a yield) what you are actually getting is +1 gold OR research OR espionage OR culture for every sea tile. That is massively overpowered, even more so than Financial (which is already pretty overpowered from the sheer flexibility and exponential increase it offers).

Having said that, if the +1 commerce was applied only to waterbased improvements such as fishing boats then it could be more manageable. It would still be very powerful though and thus tip the trait even more heavily in favour of coastal cities. Personally I think an extra trade route or reduced maintenance cost are more balanced and non-exponential options.

I think as a general rule when dealing with any of the 3 yields (food, production, commerce), great care should be taken to ensure that any bonuses are linear and not exponential. BTS already has many exponential yield increases from buildings and wonders.

EDIT: Someone (I don't recall who) has an Enlightened trait in their mod that allows non-state religion buildings to give cultural bonuses as well state religion buildings. I always felt that the concept of 'Enlightened' fits a civic better than a trait.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 04:35 PM   #112
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Apologies if this is obvious, but I think this needs to be stressed:

It's vital to remember the difference between commerce and gold. Commerce is a yield you get from tiles and other sources, whereas gold is just one thing you can turn commerce into. With the suggestion of +1 commerce from sea tiles (+1 gold cannot be added to tiles as it is not a yield) what you are actually getting is +1 gold OR research OR espionage OR culture for every sea tile. That is massively overpowered, even more so than Financial (which is already pretty overpowered from the sheer flexibility and exponential increase it offers).

Having said that, if the +1 commerce was applied only to waterbased improvements such as fishing boats then it could be more manageable. It would still be very powerful though and thus tip the trait even more heavily in favour of coastal cities. Personally I think an extra trade route or reduced maintenance cost are more balanced and non-exponential options.

I think as a general rule when dealing with any of the 3 yields (food, production, commerce), great care should be taken to ensure that any bonuses are linear and not exponential. BTS already has many exponential yield increases from buildings and wonders.

EDIT: Someone (I don't recall who) has an Enlightened trait in their mod that allows non-state religion buildings to give cultural bonuses as well state religion buildings. I always felt that the concept of 'Enlightened' fits a civic better than a trait.
I don't really want to add gold or commerce (or anything) to the seafaring trait anyway. I am a little confused sometimes about the terminology.

Anyway, as far as the EDIT goes, I'd say if anything that should be part of the Free Religion civic.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 05:59 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Capo View Post
Alright, well anyway, here are the last two suggested ideas. This is first from AbsintheRed:



And this was what I last said:



So let's move on with the discussion now. I like Absinthe's suggestions for Nationailstic, the only issue I forsee is that we will not know how truly worthwhile it is until the Spy Promotions are installed.
I'd add +2 culture per NW as well, on top of the +1 . Aside from that, looks great.

For Seafaring, I concede that the 50% reduction of colony maintenance is -perfect- for this trait, and am pushing for that.
If that can't be done, then I still say Drill 1 is the second best option.

Also sorry for the lack of updates on the leaders.
I'm workin' on 'em, just had my time slightly hogged. Finally got my hands on Star Trek Online (I confess, I'm a big trekkie. I don't mean big as in "I watch it all the time," I mean big as in "I own and have read Hamlet in the original Klingon.")

I'll have work to show off by tommorow night.
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Old Mar 17, 2010, 06:25 PM   #114
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Actually I already have my suggestions for Lincoln:

Lincoln:
Change iWonderConstructRand from 30 to 20
Change BasePeaceWeight from 9 to 7
Change iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio from 90 to 100
Change iLimitedWarRand from 200 to 170
Change Dogpile to 35
Change iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange to 0
Change iBuildUnitProb from 25 to 30
Change flavors from science (5) and growth (2) to production (5) and science (2)

That -should- help Lincoln use his hammers more wisely, and he'll have more to use during a war. Thus making him less likely to be what he is now: Easy Vassal #1.

Personally, I've gotta suggest his traits might be part of why he tends to suck.
Sure, Cha/Phi is easy as hell for -us- to utilize, but the AI? Not so much.
I'd almost recommend Cha/Org as his traits. They make more sense to me.

Cha: Known for his speeches and his generals.
Org: Brought about more federal power within the union. -Much- more. Not to mention he was a great lawyer, so free courthouses make sense.


Then for Ramses I've got
Change iBasePeaceWeight from 6 to 4
Change iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio from 90 to 100
Change iMaxWarMinAdjacentLandPercent to 1
Change iLimitedWarRand from 160 to 120
Change iDogpileWarRand from 100 to 75
Change iMakePeaceRand from 20 to 40
Change iBuildUnitProb from 20 to 30
Change iVassalPowerModifier from 0 to 20
Change flavors from culture (5) production (2) to production (5) culture (2)
Change UnitAIWeightModifiers from reserve to attack city

I feel that although Ramses is usually most known for his monuments, it's better to have Hatshepsut as the cultural Egyptian leader whereas Ramses is based more on his other side: The Syrian conquerer. The Kadesh battle Rameses.
He's still cultural, and still big on wonders, but now he's also big on conquest as well.
I also made him harder to vassalize, because the idea of vassalizing -Ramses- just seems kinda funny to me. It -needs- to be something that is relatively hard to do, like you've got him seriously backed into a corner.
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 04:48 AM   #115
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What i said were +1 Production, not commerce, and also only for those coast tiles next to the city. It is right that commerce will be overpowered, but such a small production bonus don't count that much and don't make it so overpowered. It also makes it easyer for seafaring nations to concentrate about their coast territories, even those who lack hills for production.

Edit:
Looks like The Capo is the only one here who got that, cheers to you
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 06:37 AM   #116
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LOL, everybody got that
But it was a bad idea IMO, a production bonus like that is -very- unpredictible and can be/would be really unbalanced.
Capo said right away that he won't go with that, maybe with commerce bonus on coast tiles instead, and everyone else reacted only that.
Btw, that would be also an over the top bonus, just like Xyth stated before
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 09:11 AM   #117
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Yeah, no commerce, no gold, no nothing for Seafaring (at least as far as ocean or coast tiles are concerned). I think it is unnecessary really. They're already getting all of their coastal buildings at half-cost, which is pretty good.

We should also keep in mind, we're talking what? Four or five leaders maybe that will have this trait?
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 10:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Capo View Post
Yeah, no commerce, no gold, no nothing for Seafaring (at least as far as ocean or coast tiles are concerned). I think it is unnecessary really. They're already getting all of their coastal buildings at half-cost, which is pretty good.

We should also keep in mind, we're talking what? Four or five leaders maybe that will have this trait?
For what its worth of the leaders you posted above, these are the ones I would think could qualify (some for steriotypical reasons)
It should be noted, that I think duplicate traits should be avoided at all costs, I know there will be some overlap, in that case, it should be limited to each combination used no more than twice.
  • Afonso Henriques (Portugal) - Nationalistic(or whatever the other new one is)/Seafaring
  • Canute the Great (Vikings) - Financial/Seafaring
  • Charles V (Spain) - Spiritual/Seafaring
  • Dido (Carthage) - Creative/Seafaring
  • Henry the Navigator (Portugal) - Expansive/Seafaring
  • Johan deWitt (Netherlands) - Philosophical/Seafaring
  • Kamehameha (Polynesia) - Protective/Seafaring
  • Maurits van Nassau (Netherlands) - Aggressive/Seafaring
  • Philip II (Spain) - Imperialist/Seafaring
  • Salamasina (Polynesia) - Organized/Seafaring
  • Hiram (Phoenicia) - Industrious/Seafaring

The only one that leaves out is the Charismatic/Seafaring combo, and I am sure a leader can be found for that.
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 10:13 AM   #119
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I would take Afonso Henriques off of the list of Seafaring leaders. There really is no reason to call him Seafaring other than the fact that he is Portuguese, and AFAIK he was the first Portuguese King, and I don't think they were doing much sailing during his reign.
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Old Mar 18, 2010, 11:31 AM   #120
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I would take Afonso Henriques off of the list of Seafaring leaders. There really is no reason to call him Seafaring other than the fact that he is Portuguese, and AFAIK he was the first Portuguese King, and I don't think they were doing much sailing during his reign.
Fair enough. either way. Its almost a complete set for the Seafaring trait.

Other options would be a Greek Leader, preferably one of the Athenian ones. Pericles somewhat fits, although, that would require replacing his trait combination.

Pyrrhus might work as the Charismatic/Seafaring, But again that is strickly because of his greek maritime roots. He did conduct a few sea battles.
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