[BTS] SGOTM 11 Rules Discussion

[ETa]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

They are public threads. The rules are that we only look in our own team thread until the game is over. AlanH knows when you're naughty, so click carefully...

I think I already did that and entered into one of the threads which apparently didn't belong to the team that I was assigned into, but I didn't read anything. Anyway I have forgiveness to ask.

[DynamicSpirit]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to those who were asking about this. It took a while to decipher the ancient Holy texts that explained how Eldine would measure each team's success. Anyway..

As I think everyone understands, the Laurels will go to the three teams who satisfy all Eldine's special conditions and get the earliest victory dates. If no team meets all conditions, then noone gets any Laurels, and Eldine will leave the world in disgust and go find a universe that has a more intelligent species of life.

The ordering of teams when the results are published will be firstly by how many conditions a team satisfied, and secondarily by the date of your UN or cultural victory. That implies that the wooden spoon will got to the team that gains a diplomatic or cultural victory while failing to meet the most of Eldine's conditions. If there's a tie on this, then victory date will be the tiebreaker (slowest date gets the wooden spoon).

The results list will indicate what conditions (if any) a team missed, and I, Erkon and Eldine reserve the right to publically mock, insult and generally laugh at those teams that failed some of the conditions.

Any team that didn't win a cultural or diplomatic victory goes in separate list of defeated teams and will suffer eternal shame. I, Erkon, and Eldine will probably not even consider it worth the effort to mock you, such will be your disgrace.

I trust that every team will sincerely try to meet all conditions, but just in case any team finds it's not going to be possible to do so and cares about maximizing its ranking, here's how I'll measure how many conditions a team has missed in your final save file:

• Each AI that is alive but not running a state religion counts as one missed condition. (For example, two AIs running free religion means you have 2 missed conditions).
• Each AI above the 2nd one that is alive and has a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards the team counts as TWO missed conditions. This should give a measure of how repulsive Eldine finds war to be.
• Each AI that is dead counts as THREE missed conditions (but you won't be penalized further for declarations of war against dead AIs).
• Failing to have 4 warriors and 4 great people on the fur counts as one missed condition.
• Not running a state religion counts as a missed condition
• Not having your state religion in all your cities counts as a missed condition
• Not having fur, dye, ivory and silk available to all your cities counts as a missed condition.

[da_Vinci]

Originally Posted by DynamicSpirit

I trust that every team will sincerely try to meet all conditions, but just in case any team finds it's not going to be possible to do so and cares about maximizing its ranking, here's how I'll measure how many conditions a team has missed in your final save file:

• Each AI that is alive but not running a state religion counts as one missed condition. (For example, two AIs running free religion means you have 2 missed conditions).
• Each AI above the 2nd one that is alive and has a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards the team counts as TWO missed conditions. This should give a measure of how repulsive Eldine finds war to be.
• Each AI that is dead counts as THREE missed conditions (but you won't be penalized further for declarations of war against dead AIs).
• Failing to have 4 warriors and 4 great people on the fur counts as one missed condition.
• Not running a state religion counts as a missed condition
• Not having your state religion in all your cities counts as a missed condition
• Not having fur, dye, ivory and silk available to all your cities counts as a missed condition.

Seems like there is a bit of mutilation of the English language going on here, don't you think? Statments that are the equivalent of "One missed condition counts as three missed conditions" just strike me as odd.

I will think of it as missed conditions having different numbers of penalty points (rather missed conditions being multiple missed conditions) to preserve my sanity (assuming I have any)

It is interesting that while each AI dead, over the war limit, or not in religion counts as a missed condition and adds more penalty points, the reception party (could have been 8 missed conditions for some number of penalty points) and the resources (could have been 4 missed conditions for some number of penalty points) can at most result in one missed condition, for one penalty point in each category. So party of seven is as bad as party of 0, and 3 resources is as bad as 0 resources ... right?

About us running state religion ... are there additional missed conditions (or penalty points) for each city not properly converted? Or is n-1 converted cities as bad as 0 converted cities?

(Welcome to the FIFTH level of Hell ... )

dV(il)

[DynamicSpirit]

Yeah, penalty points would probably have been a better way of saying it, but I'm sure you understand the meaning Obviously I would change it but then your subsequent post would look silly

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by da_Vinci

Seems like there is a bit of mutilation of the English language going on here, don't you think?

Originally Posted by da_Vinci

Statments

Spoiler:

Dictionary.com

statments - no dictionary results

No comment.

[da_Vinci]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

Spoiler:

Dictionary.com

statments - no dictionary results

No comment.

Is that the only typo in my post? That's an improvement!

(Why do you think my posts have so many edits?)

dV

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Erkon

The rules for colonies will be published any day. Please be patient.

Am I blind or is my patience wearing thin?

[DynamicSpirit]

Sorry if we missed anything.

Basically, the rules and penalty points as published in this thread, apply to all AI civs that ever come to exist during the course of the game. When we examine your final save to determine whether you have met all Eldine's requirements, any AIs that got created as colonies etc. will be viewed no differently from those AIs who were around at the start of the game.

[Avulsion]

Hi, I'm a noob with a question.

I've been reading the first couple pages of one of the SGOTM 10s and some players are saying they tested the map to see how fast they could get a certain building, etc. while others are saying they "hope" the terrain that they explore is favorable.

This confuses me because on the one hand the team can reveal the whole map and then plan what they want to do while OTOH the team doesn't know and isn't allowed to know what the map looks like by testing it (save, explore, load back up).

Is there a rule on this, or what?

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Avulsion

Hi, I'm a noob with a question.

Welcome to CivFanatics and GOTM.

Originally Posted by Avulsion

I've been reading the first couple pages of one of the SGOTM 10s and some players are saying they tested the map to see how fast they could get a certain building, etc. while others are saying they "hope" the terrain that they explore is favorable.

This confuses me because on the one hand the team can reveal the whole map and then plan what they want to do while OTOH the team doesn't know and isn't allowed to know what the map looks like by testing it (save, explore, load back up).

Is there a rule on this, or what?

Teams are not allowed to use the game save to test with, you must play the game using only the knowledge you gain as you progress.

Some teams use WorldBuilder to create saves that are similar to what they see in their game to test certain actions. As no team should know what lies ahead, they have to guess at what the terrain may look like outside their known world.

[da_Vinci]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

Welcome to CivFanatics and GOTM.


Teams are not allowed to use the game save to test with, you must play the game using only the knowledge you gain as you progress.

Some teams use WorldBuilder to create saves that are similar to what they see in their game to test certain actions. As no team should know what lies ahead, they have to guess at what the terrain may look like outside their known world.

Not sure anyone is really "guessing" about the unseen terrain ... I would assume that they generate a map with the game conditions, use WB to make some spot look like the known tiles of the start, and take what the map gave them for the unknown world, until as the game progresses they can update the test save in WB to match newly discovered reality.

@ Avulsion ... sounds painful! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avulsion

dV

[LowtherCastle]

Testing with Worldbuildered test games is fraught with danger. Don't ever do it!!! (j/k)

We use it primarily to test our micromanagement: city builds, worker moves, etc. It's also handy for testing general game mechanics on occasion, if you don't know the code or are unsure of it.

One has to be very careful to not be misled by the false game conditions and situations one encounters, because they're invariably far from what will actually happen in the real game, and human nature seems to be to believe/count on the false experiences.

[da_Vinci]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

We use it primarily to test our micromanagement: city builds, worker moves, etc. It's also handy for testing general game mechanics on occasion, if you don't know the code or are unsure of it.

One has to be very careful to not be misled by the false game conditions and situations one encounters, because they're invariably far from what will actually happen in the real game, and human nature seems to be to believe/count on the false experiences.

A very good point. The test can tell you how well or how fast your own decisions get you to a particular goal (for example, does one particular worker action, whip, and tech order get you to some tech or build faster than some other worker action, whip, and tech order?). The test game cannot tell you whether that is good enough to beat an AI to that goal, as the test does not replicate the AI positions in the real game, just your position.

dV

[AlanH]

Another serious danger - and it has happened in a GOTM competition - is when someone plays around with a save, believing it to be a test map, but actually they are using the real competition save. They play and replay the "test save", then play the actual game, and then get a nasty surprise when their submission is rejected because the "test" replays were on the real map.

[Ronnie1]

Which is why I have a COMPLETELY SEPARATE FOLDER for test maps. I try to make it as hard as possible on myself to screw things up!

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by AlanH

Another serious danger - and it has happened in a GOTM competition - is when someone plays around with a save, believing it to be a test map, but actually they are using the real competition save. They play and replay the "test save", then play the actual game, and then get a nasty surprise when their submission is rejected because the "test" replays were on the real map.

To say nothing of our beloved AlanH frowning on the idea of test saves...

I try to avoid the fatal mistake you described by always FIRST clicking on [esc] and verifying that I can enter Worldbuilder. Then I know I can't be in the real game save.

[AlanH]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

To say nothing of our beloved AlanH frowning on the idea of test saves...

... mainly for the reason I've given above.

I used to worry that making test saves gave an unfair advantage to players with the time and expertise to use WB in this way. But the points you have raised demonstrate the limitations and dangers of relying on the technique.

[kcd_swede]

Originally Posted by AlanH

I used to worry that making test saves gave an unfair advantage to players with the time and expertise to use WB in this way.

So true! We should ban all players that have both time and expertise from these competitions.

[Mad Professor]

Originally Posted by kcd_swede

So true! We should ban all players that have both time and expertise from these competitions.

Heh - if we did that the rest of us wouldn't learn anything!

[Jon Shaw]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

I try to avoid the fatal mistake you described by always FIRST clicking on [esc] and verifying that I can enter Worldbuilder. Then I know I can't be in the real game save.

Good idea Lowther, I always get a bit uncomfortable playing test saves 'cos it is too easy to mistakenly use the real save.