Civ 5 digital deluxe coming exclusively to Steam! Steamworks confirmed!

[Tasunke]

Originally Posted by ArcadicGamer

This is no different than making a CIV4 mod that is Warlords and trying to distribute it.

Wrong. Warlords added new game mechanics, patches, and Scenarios. 10$ Babylon is just a civ for 10$. Its the definition of Lame ... its not even a "specialty nation", Babylon is one of the regulars. Now... if they were releasing Israelis, or Nazis, or Confederates, or the Borg ... I might be more interested. But Babylon? please ...

Which is why they should release Babylon by itself for a 2$ DLC.

[need my speed]

Which still is gigantly overpriced.

[mjs0]

Originally Posted by need my speed

Which still is gigantly overpriced.

I can't agree or disagree with this because (unlike you apparently) I simply don't know what it will have cost Firaxis to produce Babylon. What I do know is that there is a tendency to assume the development cost is a lot lower than it really is.

My background is developing and managing software projects for mission critical business apps and products so I may over-engineer slightly but I'll try to reign that in.
So what does it take to develop and release a high quality civilization, well...
This list is obviously off the top of my head...I'm sure there are glaring (and embarrasing) omissions from this 2 minute plan.

General upfront tasks
Research on the historical leader and unique unit (and any other unique aspect of a civ in civ5 that we may not know about yet)
Leader
Design and balance leader's 'flavors'
Initial Design/approval of the leaders appearance, including the interactive background
Script the leaders actions, words, facial expressions gestures etc etc during diplomatic interaction.
Create the 3-d environment and leader figure
Record the leaders spoken words (in ancient Babylonian!)
Unique Unit
Design + Create appearance, animations, sound
Design and balance attributes
Misc
Design + Create other assets (e.g. flags, banners, color scheme(?), and who knows what else (unique buildings, more unique units, etc etc)
Testing+Release
Testing and play balancing, more testing, more play balancing
Release activities such as marketing, digital packaging, integration and distribution channel testing.

Plus...add into this all the things I've forgotten as well as the fixed overheads, the distributor fees, an allowance for after-sales support and don't forget opportunity cost...because those artists and developers could have been working on something else that had a better ROI.

So since you seem to know that $2 is too much, tell me...

• How many person-hours of artist/developer effort is this?
• How much does all this cost in dollars?
• How many will they need to sell to break even, at $2, at $5, at $10?
• What is the size of the market for this...how many can they realistically expect to sell?
• At what pricepoint will they optimize their return on investment?

[Aesir Rising]

Originally Posted by mjs0

So since you seem to know that $2 is too much, tell me...

Relevant to your question is the market size and realized sales.

So, Valve says they have over 25 million active subscribers. Of which, at any point in the day, there are (roughly) between 1.5 and 2.5 million playing (2.1m as I write this).

Civ IV - given its recent sale (USD10 for The Complete Edition) and subsequent day 2 introduction in SteamPlay (new Mac OSX market) - it shows up on the top 10 sales list on Steam. This is a game released in 2005, so apparently Civ has some staying power - believe it or not - and production costs may be recouped over a longer period of time than is otherwise the norm for a video game. Heck, even Civ III was resold ($1.25) that same week...

While Civ V pre-order numbers aren't publically available, based on this history, I have to assume V is going to sell well - and will have an automatic exposure to over 25 million potential customers (and growing) over a large number of years.

For this reason, I'm confident that the Babylon civ sales figure will be measured in the millions of dollars. Or tens of millions, given its USD 10 premium.

[mjs0]

Originally Posted by Aesir Rising

For this reason, I'm confident that the Babylon civ sales figure will be measured in the millions of dollars. Or tens of millions, given its USD 10 premium.

Personally I would be very surprised if the deluxe edition sold more than 80-100k copies, as the value just doesn't seem to be there to encourage anyone spending the extra $10.
If it is eventually made available separately for a lower charge, say $2, it may sell more but at a much lower margin.
It will be interesting to see how much of these numbers we get visibility into...based on the facts available so far I just don't see where your confidence is coming from.

Anyway, my real issue is with the arbitrary determination that $2 would be 'gigantly' over-priced, not with your comments.

[need my speed]

People are stupid sheep. Don't overestimate the capability of humans to think (smartly).

[Aesir Rising]

Originally Posted by mjs0

Personally I would be very surprised if the deluxe edition sold more than 80-100k copies, as the value just doesn't seem to be there to encourage anyone spending the extra $10.

I'm happy to plug in whatever numbers - simply because I have no idea about relative sales volumes yet. I only know some tidbits, and putting them all together, I try to paint as realistic a picture as possible. So, for example, Firaxis' own poorly-maintained and wildly-outdated site says things like "Since its release, Civilization III has sold millions of copies worldwide". That text has been there for years. I am under the impression that Civ IV sold better than Civ III, given the cited source on the Civ IV wikipedia article, "As of March 26, 2008, Civilization IV has sold 3 million copies according to Take-Two Interactive.[2]" (the link to the legal document relating to the EA tendered offer to buy TakeTwo is broken, so the original source can't be retrieved). That 3 million copy number was from prior to the The Complete Edition release.

So, for fun, let's go with your 80k-100k sales figure for the Deluxe Edition, but keep in mind that history demonstrates total sales counted in the millions of copies for the last two major verisons). That puts the gross for the DE content at something between USD160k (@ $2) and USD1m (@ $10). That range overlaps the low end magnitude of my own estimate (...millions...).

I'm definitely not trying to be argumentative. These posts are intended to try to insert some objective data into the discussion - when we're trying to guess at the relative cost vs value and merit of having the DE content. Picking $2 as a number out of thin air is just as useful for such a subjective discussion as the known $10 premium.

Now for my own editorial:
If anyone asks, I think $10 is too high for that content. Problem is that I'll probably still get it, unless I know whether or not I'm deploying next year (at which point I'll probably end up waiting for the Civ V: The Complete Edition Deluxe sale). And for reasons outside of price, I don't like the concept of vendor-exclusive deals anyway. I really want to base my point-of-purchase decision on the merits of the vendor -and not whether or not I'd screw myself out of in-game content because I went with my preferred vendor of choice. I find the whole vendor-exclusive deals to be very anti-consumer and very anti-competitive.

[Commander Bello]

Originally Posted by mjs0

Anyway, my real issue is with the arbitrary determination that $2 would be 'gigantly' over-priced, not with your comments.

The estimation of price may differ from the side, at which you are sitting.

As a customer, I am not that much interested in the creator's costs. I value the product by my own expectations.
It might cost Firaxis 25$ and yet for the consumer it is valid to say that it won't be worth anything above 2$.

It is just that easy. Prices are a function of offer and demand.

Actually, it is one of the worst things a customer can do to say: "Oh, but the creator did have so huge costs! Then of course I will have to spend more."
Costs are something, which can easily be created. No problem at all.
To avoid costs and then to be competitive with one's offer, that's the challenge.

[The_J]

Originally Posted by mjs0

I can't agree or disagree with this because (unlike you apparently) I simply don't know what it will have cost Firaxis to produce Babylon.

Even if you only look at the default 18 civs, then for a price of 50$/€, a civ costs less than 3€/$.
And there you don't consider the 3D engine, the sound, etc.

And just another short calculation: A civ for 2€/$ is sold 1000 times. This makes 2000$/€.
If you there don't consider taxes and so on, and just calculate, that a programmer would get 25$/€ /hour, this are 80 hours of work.
2 weeks should be enough for a civ, i guess.

[Angelscotboi]

I just want to add in my two pence here and say that I HATE this idea.

I bought Empire Total War and installed it and when I realised it REQUIRED me to have installed Steam and be online (for an offline SINGLE PLAYER GAME!) I promptly uninstalled it and took it back to the store to exchange it for something else.

I hate Steam. Its an appalling program (from an appalling monopolistic company) that is an invasive resource hog that spies on my game/computer usage. I mean why else would this program HAVE to connect to online AT ALL for a single player game?
It makes no sense.

As DRM its one of the more annoying types out there.

I so wont be buying Civ 5 now. Im well gutted that firaxis would do this cos I was REALLY looking forward to Civ 5.

I personally point blank refuse to pay 30 to 40 pounds up front for a game that then REQUIRES me to install a 3rd party program that i GUARANTEE i would NEVER use. Never. I dont play multiplayer.

EDIT:
Is Firaxis aware that Steam is pretty much universally hated because of its DRM process and invasiveness? Are they aware that many folks are going to not buy Civ 5 cos of this? Do they just not care?

I used to have every Creative Assembly game UNTIL they got into bed with Steam. I traded them all in because of it and havent bought a single game from them since. I really didnt think Firaxis would go down this road also.

[arstal]

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi

I just want to add in my two pence here and say that I HATE this idea.

I bought Empire Total War and installed it and when I realised it REQUIRED me to have installed Steam and be online (for an offline SINGLE PLAYER GAME!) I promptly uninstalled it and took it back to the store to exchange it for something else.

I hate Steam. Its an appalling program (from an appalling monopolistic company) that is an invasive resource hog that spies on my game/computer usage. I mean why else would this program HAVE to connect to online AT ALL for a single player game?
It makes no sense.

As DRM its one of the more annoying types out there.

I so wont be buying Civ 5 now. Im well gutted that firaxis would do this cos I was REALLY looking forward to Civ 5.

I personally point blank refuse to pay 30 to 40 pounds up front for a game that then REQUIRES me to install a 3rd party program that i GUARANTEE i would NEVER use. Never. I dont play multiplayer.

Steam is not universally hated. It has fanboys just like the PS3 and 360.

3rd party programs to patch/install/ can use while playing (Impulse)= ok. While I'm no fan of DRM, I do think companies have a right when giving added value to a customer (patching) to try and make sure the people who supported them are the ones to get it.
As long it doesn't slow down loading the game like Steam does, I'm ok with that sort of thing.

3rd party that I need to play the game I purchased= not ok.

Steam gets a free pass on lots of things that if other companies did them, people would be full of rage over. People should be enraged at some things Steam does- it's why I don't pay full price for anything on Steam, and why I tend to avoid Steam exclusives like the plague.

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi

Is Firaxis aware that Steam is pretty much universally hated because of its DRM process and invasiveness? Are they aware that many folks are going to not buy Civ 5 cos of this? Do they just not care?

Pro Tip: Not everyone thinks like you.
Just because you randomly hate something for little reason doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.
Fact: Steam is immensely popular, something that you can easily check for yourself by starting it up and checking the amount of active users.

[Senethro]

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi

I just want to add in my two pence here and say that I HATE this idea.

I bought Empire Total War and installed it and when I realised it REQUIRED me to have installed Steam and be online (for an offline SINGLE PLAYER GAME!)

Look at you not knowing how to use offline mode.

I promptly uninstalled it and took it back to the store to exchange it for something else.

Thats a kind of theft. It'll still be on your Steam account despite your return.

I hate Steam. Its an appalling program (from an appalling monopolistic company) that is an invasive resource hog that spies on my game/computer usage. I mean why else would this program HAVE to connect to online AT ALL for a single player game?
It makes no sense.

No.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009...-distribution/

Huh, that valve will surely be the death of PC gaming with its monopolistic behaviour, helping out indie devs with good publishing deals. Man, those jerks! Look at all those people RPS dug up trying to defend them.

Maybe it would be better if Valve the developer and Steam the publisher were a bit more separate but noone seems to be harmed by it at present.

As DRM its one of the more annoying types out there.

Nope.

I so wont be buying Civ 5 now. Im well gutted that firaxis would do this cos I was REALLY looking forward to Civ 5.

Someone should start a list of your guys just so we can spot whos weakwilled in a few months.

EDIT:
Is Firaxis aware that Steam is pretty much universally hated because of its DRM process and invasiveness? Are they aware that many folks are going to not buy Civ 5 cos of this? Do they just not care?

Look at you not having a clue.

I used to have every Creative Assembly game UNTIL they got into bed with Steam. I traded them all in because of it and havent bought a single game from them since. I really didnt think Firaxis would go down this road also.

Yeah, you sure showed CA by trading in their games, well done.

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[Angelscotboi]

Originally Posted by The Almighty dF

Pro Tip: Not everyone thinks like you.
Just because you randomly hate something for little reason doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.
Fact: Steam is immensely popular, something that you can easily check for yourself by starting it up and checking the amount of active users.

Its not random which you would know if ud bothered to read my post.

Just because your a fanboy doesnt mean I need to be.

Originally Posted by Senethro

Look at you not knowing how to use offline mode.


Thats a kind of theft. It'll still be on your Steam account despite your return.


No.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009...-distribution/

Huh, that valve will surely be the death of PC gaming with its monopolistic behaviour, helping out indie devs with good publishing deals. Man, those jerks! Look at all those people RPS dug up trying to defend them.

Maybe it would be better if Valve the developer and Steam the publisher were a bit more separate but noone seems to be harmed by it at present.


Nope.

Someone should start a list of your guys just so we can spot whos weakwilled in a few months.


Look at you not having a clue.



Yeah, you sure showed CA by trading in their games, well done.

Dont be rude. Its my opinion and im entitled to it.

I quite legitimately DONT like Steamworks. I have every reason to. I know there is an offline mode but unfortunately it doesnt work properly. It lads like 4/5 days and then demands to be online again.
Additionally Empire wouldnt run without having steamworks running. That I resent.

Why should I have a 3rd party program that I DONT NEED running in order to play a game on my own?

Thats invasive and unfair and goes FAR BEYOND being simple DRM.

I have a right to air my displeasure with that fact and to object how I please. But getting rid of the games fromt he company utilising this horrible program and refuse to buy further games.

Sorry if opinion offends you but I havent been rude theres no need for you to be.

When I said universally hated I mean the whole DRM part not the downloadable content part (which is almost universally liked I realise) which I think you know. I dont know anyone who LIKES the type DRM that Steamworks has.

Try for a little civility in future. No need for being a patronising get.

EDIT:
I should say that that perhaps I misworded myself in my earlier post tho. I am not entirely sure if this only counts for the digital deluxe edition of the game or not. If I can buy the game in a store and not be forced to have Steamworks installed and running when playing Civ 5 then I would likely still buy the game.
I only object to steamworks for the style of DRM really.

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi

Its not random which you would know if ud bothered to read my post.

Just because your a fanboy doesnt mean I need to be.





Dont be rude. Its my opinion and im entitled to it.

I quite legitimately DONT like Steamworks. I have every reason to. I know there is an offline mode but unfortunately it doesnt work properly. It lads like 4/5 days and then demands to be online again.
Additionally Empire wouldnt run without having steamworks running. That I resent.

Why should I have a 3rd party program that I DONT NEED running in order to play a game on my own?

Thats invasive and unfair and goes FAR BEYOND being simple DRM.

I have a right to air my displeasure with that fact and to object how I please. But getting rid of the games fromt he company utilising this horrible program and refuse to buy further games.

Sorry if opinion offends you but I havent been rude theres no need for you to be.

When I said universally hated I mean the whole DRM part not the downloadable content part (which is almost universally liked I realise) which I think you know. I dont know anyone who LIKES the type DRM that Steamworks has.

Try for a little civility in future.

You word your opinions as facts, and thus you lose the right to go "well it's just my opinion."

Steam's DRM is fine compared to most forms of Securom (in that it doesn't have much of a hardware impact) and Starforce (which is considered Malware by many due to multiple accounts where they've done serious damage).
It has no limitations on installation, doesn't require an internet connection after installation, and doesn't cause performance issues.

Read up on what you're talking about before acting like you know what you're talking about.

[Angelscotboi]

Originally Posted by The Almighty dF

You word your opinions as facts, and thus you lose the right to go "well it's just my opinion."

Steam's DRM is fine compared to most forms of Securom (in that it doesn't have much of a hardware impact) and Starforce (which is considered Malware by many due to multiple accounts where they've done serious damage).
It has no limitations on installation, doesn't require an internet connection after installation, and doesn't cause performance issues.

Read up on what you're talking about before acting like you know what you're talking about.

I never once presented what I said as absolute fact or that I was in the absolute right. I am sorry you read it that way.

Its my opinion and how I feel and I believe im right.

My own experience with Steamworks and Steam Customer Support was less than pleasant and as such I rather hate the program. I resent it for a very good reason as I have already explained.

And as I said to the other one there. There really is no reason to be rude or patronising.

You disagree with me fine. You think I am wrong. Fine. Say so, then state your own opinion; but dont be a patronising rude get mate.

EDIT:
Ive said what I wanted to say so I dont really need to go into it. Unsubscribin from the thread now. Tats.

[The Almighty dF]

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi

I never once presented what I said as absolute fact or that I was in the absolute right. I am sorry you read it that way.

Its my opinion and how I feel and I believe im right.

My own experience with Steamworks and Steam Customer Support was less than pleasant and as such I rather hate the program. I resent it for a very good reason as I have already explained.

And as I said to the other one there. There really is no reason to be rude or patronising.

Oh really?

Originally Posted by Angelscotboi;9212[B

230]Its an appalling program (from an appalling monopolistic company) that is an invasive resource hog that spies on my game/computer usage.[/B]

Is Firaxis aware that Steam is pretty much universally hated because of its DRM process and invasiveness?

[tom2050]

That is his opinion. You have your opinion that you state is fact, which is not.

Originally Posted by The Almighty dF

Steam is immensely popular

Immense popularity cannot be determined by the amount of users online. A percentage of those users are forced online and forced to use Steam against their wishes in order to play games they have purchases.

[Senethro]

Oh the poor oppressed masses scalded by Steam! How terrible that they are not safe under the protection of Securerom, starforce or whatever ubisoft has this month.

[tom2050]

If you lived in a society which committed mass genocide on a regular basis, you would be one of the blind cattle that would agree with the ones doing it to you.


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