Luchuirp the Hated Civ?

[graywarden]

I did not see a thread dedicated to the Luchuirp, and because this is my current test, I had to ask, Why are they hated so much?

No I have not taken the time to read the lore?

But I have noticed, nearly every test, they are universally beat up on.
I very rarely am Overly-Aggressive in my tests (only if opportunity has the door wide-open), so I know that is not the reason in this case as a human player.

Yes my alignment is good, and though I have been borderline in strength, I have repulsed all the evil invasions. Now with both Barnaxus and Bambur as Heroes with Armies, even my best Neural neighbor has declared war.

I have six civs at War with me
One other who will most likely join the evil group

and two far away "good" civs that are ok.

I dont mind a good challenge, but man this is painful.

perhaps a "nuetral" position could be available in some manner to lessen the pain of the dwarves???

[isthmus]

Does the AI take into account golems when calculating the power rating?
Golems don't have a unitcombat so it could be that they're not considered as military units.
The AI will usually attack regardless of alignment if you're perceived to be weak enough.
Then again, I'm not 100% sure about this.
I have also noticed that the AI lurchuip always gets a beating as well.

[Lone Wolf]

Their golems are unable to make use of free AI XP, and the AI isn't that good with having the golems throw fireballs everywhere to compensate for that.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

good call lone wolf, indeed other AIs starting with XP while it's useless for Luchuirp IS an issue.

[Fafnir13]

Fire ball spewing golems come fairly late in the game. Doesn't help that you have to delve fairly deep into both the metal and magic line for this to be truly effective.
That and they handle Barnaxus very poorly. Get him to 5 star, then hide him as far from the front lines as possible.
Even for human players, Barnaxus can be troublesome. Any one unit can be fairly easy to kill, and the odds can always go against you. If it happens to any other hero, like Bambur or Rosier, you lose a powerful unit but life goes on. When it happens to Barnaxus, your mainline troops lose 30% of their fighting effectiveness. Ouch.
Even though Barnaxus can be rebuilt, he's having to start over in a more dangerous world. Some kind late game bonuses would be nice, especially an upgraded for like Lucian gets. That and not losing all his XP. Golems aren't so strong that they need such a powerful Achiles heal.

[Randomness]

Prehaps more golem enchanting buildings (like in RifE, but more extensive). There should be at least more building per magical school tech (the 4 before sorcery) nad one at socery. Idealy, there should be one per mana type (probably national wonders). Golems should also have buyable upgrades. For example, you would be able to buy a promo. adding an extra armor (increase defence). This would allow you to customize your army. This promos should be removable and at least partially refundable, so you can re-equipe your army to fit your current needs. I think this would add a lot of power and flavour to the Luchuirp.

[Calavente]

Well, And as I stated on another thread, WM added many changes (no metal weapon for warrior, easier xp, rust more resistable...etc) that boosts all civs save the luirchips, the golems being less effective than in base FFH without them being nerfed ;

only interest on the metal line for the luirchips :
-far fetched iron golem
-weapons for chariot (tierIII) and knight (tier IV) + crossbow (tierIV)
-no use of smelting, nor iron working as stand alone (every other civs has use for at least ironworking as it gives iron weapons to axemens, in the same tech line, +for chariot, +for longbows)

-for crossbows, you need to tech bowing but have gain nothing with this tech. It is compensated by the fact that you also get the berserker unit (clockwork golem) (but not the free one) without even going through Rage and the religious line

-after that, golems are roughly units with +2+3+4 compared to normal unit.
but those units can all have metal weapons;AND they cost about 50%more to be built.
with those weapons (not even talking about mithril) a simple "enchant blade /fire arrow" + combat II or maybe combat III, evens the odds between the standard unit and the golem (if the golem has +50% from barnaxus) if barnaxus is dead, it is even easier to kill the golem.
+ the golem doesn't level up so doesn't get a bit of free "healing" that way.

only advantage is that
-free +50% due to barnaxus : advantage reduced as free xp is abundant (even more due to training), and 5xp is easy to get, getting you CombatII (and combat III if the leader is aggressive).
-free promotions : late game options; only the fireballs are a bit of help here ; the other promotions are less effective/less useful : eg defensive : what is double fortification (+25% defense) when WM added palissade 10% +10%archery +wall promotion 10% + wall 20% +barracks +10%... and there is already 25%by fortification +20% wall.
Those additional 25% represents far less than they represented for the luirchips in FFH ; especially as the longbow gets defensive fire + ranged fire that the gargoyl doesn't get.

last : warriors...no weapon promotions
everybody got nerfed here : why do the luirchips got axed more strongly ?
because it was their only way to have 5 units with promotions...until charriots (that need horses + doesn't have defensive bonus + can't go into jungle) or hunter with poison blade.
now they only have 3 xp units save charriot and hunter, (adept is 3, archer is 3...Etc (so no real use for the tech that gives "city attack" no unit worthwhile that can get it, and "city defense" is only useful early game, against axes, until the others get champions as only archer can get it.)

I think that the "no ranger+", "no horse archer" + no metal weapons on the warriors induces that midgame, the only strength of the luirchips are the golems... both in attack and defense and those are not so much stronger in mid game than their normal counterpart that they were supposed to be.


I have no recent experience on late game units with luirchips, so I'll complet this when I'll have some. I think that the same process applies : effects of cII cIII + enchant blade + iron weapons, does nullify the bit of additionnal strength the golem has.
I hope I was not too confusing

[Brokenbone]

I find the Luchiurp kind of weak unless and until you have mid/late game things like golems shooting off fireballs left and right. Still, I also hate wasting XP, this is to say, I do not like the idea of using a non-XP gaining unit to kill anything, I'd rather use such to weaken a foe so that say, a dwarven living unit (chariot, hunter, whatever) can deal the death blow and advance in level. Maybe this just means that civ is not for me. Fun for some, but not for everyone, and that's okay.

I am not sure if golems could be made greatly attractive to offset the sting of things like wasted XP, whether from combat or from civics and buildings. Less hammers per golem? Free golems "popping" from workshops in your empire now and again like Demagogues? Golems starting with some kind of additional positive promotions that maybe make them cheap to field (not just causing no war weariness, maybe that they require less unit support?) or that maybe Luchiurp adepts have a few extra spells available to them that only work on golems (like how the Scions have some undead-affecting spells to make up for lack of Haste and whatnot)? Maybe some additional golem-type units that aren't necessarily shaped like men would help add some variety, although I think that'd step on the toes of how Mechanos have developed in other modmods (i.e., don't go and create a golem-wheely-cannon, sounds like someone else's steampunk stuff).

I don't know exactly why I have never much liked the Luchiurp, and I'm not sure what'd give them some kind of special mojo, but hey, I'll watch this thread! Again, given that this is Wild Mana with all its unique systems, things like even new golem "Equipment" (if cheap enough) could add a lot of fun options as well (blow some gold to make some already decent late game golems even better, and nurture those ones).

[Till]

Excellent post Calavente, but you left out religion. Soldiers of Kilmorph and the Radiant Guard both close the weapon promotion gap for the Luchiurp. SoKs in particular feel like they were designed with the Luchiurp in mind.

I'd love to have a mechanism where there are golem commanders, who get XP for the kills made by the units under their command. They could take tactical promotions, which are passed on to the units under their command.
Pretty much like Great Generals in RifE, except for the different XP gaining mechanism.

[Lord Katana]

Must say, bit surprised by reactions above about the percieved weakness of the Luch... I think they are one of the more potent races, especially in the hands of a human player.

The AI doesnt have a clue what to do with them, that is something to address yes... Better use of barnaxxes (actively hunting with him, protected and supported by other units) and more efficient use of fireballs would be a great improvement.

The woodgolem is fairly easy to build in my oppinion, and else you can use slingers for a while to hold the enemy off. I do concur with the great gap to Iron Golems and the uselessness of certain techs (then again, more races suffer from this).

And the no xp for golems... how bad is that? I think it's a good tradeoff for starting with a lot of promotions right out of the factory. And it only makes overkilling with fireballs all the more attractive (your combat units dont need the xp anyway, might as well kill the enemy with expendable and temporary units). It's almost a plus for that

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I guess it would be nice to give a little more use to barnaxus. golems could get a level of Drill for every 2 levels of drill he has, so barnie drill IV --> golems drill 2

same could be done for all other promos that have more than 1 level I guess, like guerilla, woodsman etc.

this way he's no longer something you sit in your capital as soon as he gets combat V, plus you can also get him promos depending on what enemy you're facing and your golems will benefit from that.

[DonQuigleone]

I think the fact that it's easy to get free XP now does lessen the benefit of the Luchuirp getting all their promotions right out the gate. Compared to Base FFH it's far easier for your units to get promotions (a lot of them coming for free after combat or on construction) which lessens the advantage the Luchuirp previously had.

I think more buyable gear (like demonic infusion, for instance) would ameliorate this. I also think adding a few more synergies with other religions (in particular the ashen veil) could also be interesting for the luchuirp. Right now there's demonic infusion, but I think this could be brought further. For instance what if you put a soul of a demon into a Golem? Maybe allowing it gain limited experience but be more difficult to control. Something similar could be done with other religions.

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by Till

Excellent post Calavente, but you left out religion. Soldiers of Kilmorph and the Radiant Guard both close the weapon promotion gap for the Luchiurp. SoKs in particular feel like they were designed with the Luchiurp in mind.

I'd love to have a mechanism where there are golem commanders, who get XP for the kills made by the units under their command. They could take tactical promotions, which are passed on to the units under their command.
Pretty much like Great Generals in RifE, except for the different XP gaining mechanism.

That's not just like, but is the mechanic in FF and RifE. Commanders get xp from their troops.


In any case... I'd focus on Barnaxus. IIRC, once golems are built they are complete; There is no swapping out pieces. Maybe allow Barnaxus to 'awaken' some tier4 units, allow them to gain xp.

[Till]

Awesome, i didn't know that.

[isthmus]

Originally Posted by Valkrionn

That's not just like, but is the mechanic in FF and RifE. Commanders get xp from their troops.


In any case... I'd focus on Barnaxus. IIRC, once golems are built they are complete; There is no swapping out pieces. Maybe allow Barnaxus to 'awaken' some tier4 units, allow them to gain xp.

Golems often need repair and maintainance, I imagine this would be done by a skilled engineer who could put the golem components back together. What's to stop a particularly ambitious tinkerer from adding their own bits when they do the repairs?
I'm liking the idea of a great commander UU for luchuirp (tinkerer?) - has a promotion that prevents gain of the standard commander promos and instead allows golem specific ones to be gained for minions. Could also get the repair spell as an extra.

Reasoning behind why the tinkerer would have to be in range for the promotions to take effect is that adding new stuff generally makes golems more prone to breaking down - he needs to be around nearby to supply constant maintainance to his prototype golems. Sort of fits with the golems being "complete" when made, that they're not as reliable if you keep adding outside stuff to them.

It could definitely work in the commander system in FF and Rife - gives luchuirp a use for GCs and also golem XP isn't entirely wasted.
Not sure how this could work with wildmana, golems could possibly be affected by an autocasting tinkerer in the stack - and the spell promotions could be mutually exclusive, and 1 turn only to prevent multiple tinkerers from giving the golems all possible promotions.

[Valkrionn]

I think I may add the Tinkerer... If just to give you a use for that xp. Hell, I could make it directly buildable, but only affect 2 units.

[seizer]

More sentient golems for the late game sounds like a good idea; if it can happen once, it could happen again. Could be handled through events to mimic Barnaxus lore (golem disappears, returns some turns later with ability to gain xp). It should be fairly rare though, something like 2-4 awakened golems over the course of a game, depending on mapsize.

[arstal]

Maybe at Bronze Working or Smelting Luchiurps could get a melee UU- the Engineer.

Str 5 can use all metals, can Repair. Maybe give them the ability to target siege engines like assassins can.

Another question- should assassins get a penalty when attacking siege engines?

[Valkrionn]

The rarity of awakened golems is why I'd have it only on tier4 units, which are both naturally rarer (limited) AND made of better materials, better able to hold the enchantment.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by arstal

Maybe at Bronze Working or Smelting Luchiurps could get a melee UU- the Engineer.

Str 5 can use all metals, can Repair. Maybe give them the ability to target siege engines like assassins can.

Another question- should assassins get a penalty when attacking siege engines?

You could easily do the same with their mage units (have the "modifications" they can give be based on their spell promotions) that or totally replace their mages with tinkerers. Also because they gain XP from the golems, they don't need passive XP gain as much.

Also the mithril golem would probably be a good candidate for "sentience".

But I think the name "Children of Barnaxus" would be an eloquent name for other awakened golems(perhaps the promotion...). Also perhaps the number of Golems that can be awakened at once could be related to Barnaxus's level, giving more motive to keep using him. Barnaxus could probably be given some upgrades later, so that he doesn't become too obsolete as a combat unit.