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Old Jun 27, 2010, 03:09 PM   #1
Tigernose
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Civ-specific titles

This is regarding the title that each civilization in Civilization IV had, which was empire. I think it's just stupid to call each civilization an empire. I mean American Empire? Really? When did America have an empire?

And honestly, Gandhi ruled the Indian Empire? Right...

It's completely innacurate, especially in the context of some civilizations, where their title was emphasised as a significant part of their history, for example India becoming an independent nation and not a colony of an empire.

It may seem small, but when the name is used so much in cross-civ dialogues and such, it kind of puts me off. In fact, it could go as far as being specific for every leader - especially in the context of India, for Gandhi being the leader of the newly formed independent nation, and Asoka being an emperor of the whole Indian subcontinent. I realise that there is only one leader per civ in CiV though, but could be useful if new leaders are found in expansions.

It's a small change and it's nothing that's too much to ask Firaxis to implement is it? It may seem like it's a petty thing, but when you consider titles being a crucial part of some civilizations then it really adds up to the authenticy.
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Old Jun 27, 2010, 03:22 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Tigernose View Post
I mean American Empire? Really? When did America have an empire?
The United States had a brief Imperial spurt in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Hawaii, Alaska, Cuba, Phillippines, Puerto Rico, Midway/Guam/Marianas/Marshalls/Palau, Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Virgin Islands all are or were territorial possessions of the United States.

...and I don't believe Gandhi ever held official office of any kind, so complaining that his title is technically incorrect is of questionable merit.

Back on point, I seem to recall in either CivII or CivIII one of the text-entry boxes allowed the player to customize his or her leader's title. Whether this is appropriate for CivV I guess depends on how the political/government element works, and we don't currently have very much information about that.

Last edited by AriochIV; Jun 27, 2010 at 03:28 PM.
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Old Jun 27, 2010, 03:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by AriochIV View Post
The United States had a brief Imperial spurt in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Hawaii, Alaska, Cuba, Phillippines, Puerto Rico, Midway/Guam/Marianas/Marshalls/Palau, Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Virgin Islands all are or were territorial possessions of the United States.

...and I don't believe Gandhi ever held official office of any kind, so complaining that his title is technically incorrect is of questionable merit.

Back on point, I seem to recall in either CivII or CivIII one of the text-entry boxes allowed the player to customize his or her leader's title. Whether this is appropriate for CivV I guess depends on how the political/government element works, and we don't currently have very much information about that.
I was trying to use them as vague examples, I know that Gandhi was no leader (he did get India independent) but he didn't rule an Indian empire did he?
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Old Jun 27, 2010, 04:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by AriochIV View Post
Back on point, I seem to recall in either CivII or CivIII one of the text-entry boxes allowed the player to customize his or her leader's title. Whether this is appropriate for CivV I guess depends on how the political/government element works, and we don't currently have very much information about that.
I don't recall what civ 3 had, but civ 2 had exactly the feature described in the OP: every government form had a pair of titles (male and female). There were default titles like "king", that each civ could override with it's own title like "pharaoh".

With 21 civs, 2 genders, and 7 governments (including anarchy), making 294 possible labels, this worked well. With 17 civs, one leader per civ, and a government tree that does not lend itself to a simple breakup by titles, this may not be worth it. Still, it's a good idea.
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 03:16 AM   #5
Provost Martin
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Historically an empire was a territory containing numerous nations, tribes or peoples. See the Roman Empire, or the British. Compared to a kingdom where you at least culturally had a fairly homogeneous population. It seems like Firaxis have dropped empire and are now just calling the nations Arabia, England, etc. I like that.
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 08:41 AM   #6
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I hope we'll see something like the "Dynamic Civ-Names" mod for Civ4: your nation's title changed depending on your government system and/or other factors.

With the new Social Policies system, we could have some awesome possibilities here! For example...
  • A Facist Dictatorship - Führer (e.g. Hitler, Führer of Germany)
  • A European Confederacy - Chancellor (e.g. Chancellor Otto von Bismarck)
  • Middle-Eastern w/ Deitification of Ruler - Pharoah (e.g. Pharoah Ramesses II)
  • A Direct Democracy - President (e.g. President Washington)
  • An Indigenous-American City State - Tlatoani (e.g. Montezuma, Tlatoani of Tenochtitlan)
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 10:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Tigernose View Post
I was trying to use them as vague examples, I know that Gandhi was no leader (he did get India independent) but he didn't rule an Indian empire did he?
He was murdered.
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 01:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GigaNerd View Post
With the new Social Policies system, we could have some awesome possibilities here! For example...
  • A Facist Dictatorship - Führer (e.g. Hitler, Führer of Germany)
  • A European Confederacy - Chancellor (e.g. Chancellor Otto von Bismarck)
  • Middle-Eastern w/ Deitification of Ruler - Pharoah (e.g. Pharoah Ramesses II)
  • A Direct Democracy - President (e.g. President Washington)
  • An Indigenous-American City State - Tlatoani (e.g. Montezuma, Tlatoani of Tenochtitlan)
Maybe someone here should take a look at the dynamic civ names in Rhyse & Fall or in RevDCM.
They do exactly this, IIRC, with some variations.
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 02:51 PM   #9
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I was just about to XML edit civ-specific names to all the 'empires' in Civ IV...

But yes, I agree with you completely on that. Mods like Rhye's and Fall also made those sorts of changes.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 12:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by GeoModder View Post
He was murdered.
You don't need to re-educate me, I'm trying to use him as an example, it's the best I can think of. Him being murdered after independence doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 12:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by GigaNerd View Post
I hope we'll see something like the "Dynamic Civ-Names" mod for Civ4: your nation's title changed depending on your government system and/or other factors.

With the new Social Policies system, we could have some awesome possibilities here! For example...
  • A Facist Dictatorship - Führer (e.g. Hitler, Führer of Germany)
  • A European Confederacy - Chancellor (e.g. Chancellor Otto von Bismarck)
  • Middle-Eastern w/ Deitification of Ruler - Pharoah (e.g. Pharoah Ramesses II)
  • A Direct Democracy - President (e.g. President Washington)
  • An Indigenous-American City State - Tlatoani (e.g. Montezuma, Tlatoani of Tenochtitlan)
Dynamic Civ-titles would be exactly what I wanted, but I thought it'd be too much of an ask for Firaxis. However, this should be implemented as well!
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 03:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tigernose View Post
Dynamic Civ-titles would be exactly what I wanted, but I thought it'd be too much of an ask for Firaxis. However, this should be implemented as well!
Then ask the modders! They've been known to do tremendously amazing and revolutionary things that Firaxis is just too lazy to attempt. Seriously, Fall from Heaven?!?
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 08:37 PM   #13
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Yea, really. Why don't they have dynamic civ names (Republic of whatever; the blah blah blah Tribe; The Empire of ...) RFC has it, and it shouldn't really be hard to make for Firaxis. Slapping the title of empire onto every single civ is wrong.
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