When NOT to use State Property?

[Inso]

I've been wondering lately whether I should consider using a civic other than SP in the late game period, I can never seem to find a reason not to switch into it as soon as communism comes in. I think I'm missing something since I very rarely use corporations, only played around with them once or twice, should I consider corps and free market instead if I have a few late-game GPs coming? (i.e. PHI leader).

The foreign trade route bonus always seems negligible compared to the loss in maintenance and significant production boost from souped up workshops and watermills. I guess in a very tightly packed empire with lots of overseas trade routes it could work out, but still there's that hammer bonus which would make me want to use SP.

So am I being short sighted in not considering free market or environmentalism more? I am just looking for ideas of situations in which one of these civics might be preferable to SP, I feel like such a communist being in this civic all the time! I play on imm/normal/standard maps.

[shyuhe]

Mining inc. + sid's sushi is more powerful than state property. Environmentalism can help offset crippling pollution from factories and coal plants. State property is a pretty good default civic for the late game though.

[Duo]

yeah, if you have the gp to found mining inc or sids then i would go with free market... last game i had a pretty ridiculous amount of hammers from mining inc, the base value was something like +30, but with all multipliers i was able to build almost any infrastructure building in every city i captured in 1-2 turns, my main military cities were doing something like 350 hammers per turn, which i considered pretty fantastic. economy wasnt so hot at that point, between corp maintenance and the sheer number of units i had at that point (seeing as i was making something like 12-15 per turn on a standard size map, normal speed).

if i had a GE to put into mining inc and i was a large sized empire, i'd go for it. even if youre medium sized, with a lot of vassals who you can extort copper/iron/gold/silver/coal from, its worth a shot. you'll get infra up pretty quick with enough resources, and if youre really having troubles economically you can just change a handful of your uber productive cities to making wealth and run the science slider up. converting the base hammers + multipliers back to wealth >>> the maintenance. havent really used sids, but ive heard its similarly powerful.

[Artichoker]

One other thing...you don't always need Communism in the late game. If you're considering researching it, it's a considerable chunk of beakers that you could otherwise be putting in a different tech. Or, if you're considering trading for it, you might be nearing the WFYABTA threshold of some AIs, and it could cost you a tech trade for a more important and expensive tech...

[NihilZero]

SP comes shortly after Scientific Method and is usually the last civic change you'll make in that category. Sushi (or Cereal) + Mining inc is theoretically better, but there are a lot of ifs - will you be able to get both? Is it worth the hassle of having to spread them everywhere? Do you really want the bother of building courthouses in all your cities? Will the game be functionally decided by the time you have founded both corporations, making it a pointless diversion from just closing the thing out?

In 90% of games, SP is better, but for space race games where both a GM and GE are available it might be worth the hammers and the micromanagement to go with corps. Free Market is okay if you have people to trade with and you don't possess a spawling empire on multiple landmasses. As for Environmentalism, it gives you the privilege of paying more for a lot less and is a bad civic in my opinion. I've never used it.

[huerfanista]

I'll go with corps for a single-continent space game, but for domination/conquest (especially if you have to go overseas) SP is just so user-friendly. And it's hard to beat Kremlin $buy if you've got a bunch of towns set up already.

Environmentalism isn't too bad once you get to electricity, especially if you're playing a FIN civ (windmills and watermills are as good as towns at that point), so there is some compensation for the increased corp maint.

[TheMeInTeam]

The fewer workshops/watermills and the less overseas land you hold, the weaker SP becomes.

It is the gold star civic on terra, nothing touches it.

It might be your 3rd or sometimes even 4th best option on pangaea depending on situation.

[CHEESE!]

Originally Posted by NihilZero

SP comes shortly after Scientific Method and is usually the last civic change you'll make in that category. Sushi (or Cereal) + Mining inc is theoretically better, but there are a lot of ifs - will you be able to get both? Is it worth the hassle of having to spread them everywhere? Do you really want the bother of building courthouses in all your cities? Will the game be functionally decided by the time you have founded both corporations, making it a pointless diversion from just closing the thing out?

In 90% of games, SP is better, but for space race games where both a GM and GE are available it might be worth the hammers and the micromanagement to go with corps. Free Market is okay if you have people to trade with and you don't possess a spawling empire on multiple landmasses. As for Environmentalism, it gives you the privilege of paying more for a lot less and is a bad civic in my opinion. I've never used it.

This. I'm a late-game warmonger and thus an SP addict.

[z0wb13]

environmentalism tends to be the best civic on a OCC. otherwise i stay away from it.

and like others have said, unless you are running corps, stick with state property.

[mirthadir]

FM tends to only beat SP when you use corps. Corps can often provide more , and even than SP.

Enviro is very helpful if:
1. The AIs are running heavy corps and you aren't.
2. You have lots of windmills.
3. You have low health resource count.

Normally I want at least 2 of those 3 to consider Enviro.

Merc gives you around 6 or equivalent if you are running Rep; which while not spectacular is a decent offset. The big thing here is if you are subsidizing the AI with mad trade routes. Going merc nerfs the AI trade to you and greatly decreases their inputs (e.g. you have consolidated your landmass after killing 2 AIs the AIs will likely get more from trading with you than you from them). With mid-range corps this can come out on top, but generally merc places 4th for me late game.

All of the above is completely overshadowed by the most common reason to adopt another civic here - I need to keep an AI civ at friendly (or at least pleased so I won't get attacked). Diplomacy trumps economy.

[NihilZero]

Mercantilism is great when everybody is running it and SP is not available yet, and as Mirthadir mentions, trade with the AI is pretty lopsided in that they have all the multipliers up and invariably make more out of trade than you do (note how the human is almost always last in trade in the demographics screen, although that doesn't tell the whole story).

All of the above is completely overshadowed by the most common reason to adopt another civic here - I need to keep an AI civ at friendly (or at least pleased so I won't get attacked). Diplomacy trumps economy.

Yes, but I find that the AI has very little loyalty when it comes to the economy civics. If their favourite civic is government or religion you can usually get a lot of mileage out of it, but Mansa and Hannibal often drop FM quickly, or occasionally skip it altogether. SP is actually one of the Economy civics that AIs are likely to stay in for longer than most.

[r_rolo1]

FM gives a extra trade route. That in itself might be big enough to trump SP maintenance cut ...

[Artichoker]

Originally Posted by r_rolo1

FM gives a extra trade route. That in itself might be big enough to trump SP maintenance cut ...

That, and the tech requirements of State Property as well.

Unless you're shooting for the free GSpy or trying to use Communism as trade bait, the beaker requirement of Communism (or the WFYABTA cost of trading for it) is often the main discouragement of using State Property.

On the other hand, Free Market only requires Economics, which is on the path to Corporation and Assembly Line (for Infantry and Factories).

I have played many games where getting Communism was redundant in the late game, and I'd rather use the trade potential (counting both trading chips and WFYABTA) for other techs besides Communism.

[r_rolo1]

Don't get me wrong, SP is a really strong contender in the economics civic board, but atleast in a good bunch of maps and situations FM trade routes can beat the maintenance cutdown of SP. But SP is not just the maintenance cut: it is also the extra food to workshops/watermills and the 10% extra prod in all cities. This might be huge too, and it is probably the prime reason why people adopt SP in BtS in the first place , because this allows to zerg units and win the game by pure hammer force if properly used.

[Rittmeyer]

I guess all of the above can be resumed in: dont use SP if - a) you plan to end the game so damn soon that Communism is wasted beakers. b) you love being bored to hell by corporations micro (spreading and those horrible resource trades that you have to redo every 10 turns because the AI will want to squeeze more gold whenever it has a chance).

None of the above fits my game style, so nowadays I always use SP.

Actually, going further on civics, I have recently decided that most end-game civic choices are pretty much pre-defined to me.

Gov: Representation. The other 2 are only situational - if rush buying an army (US) or if shutting down research because I just want to destroy the world with what I have already (PS).

Legal: Bureau. Situational: Nationhood if I'm still abusing draft (but I don't like doing it for the whole game). Free Speech should only be used if going culture (I don't like that), or if you cottaged everything, which you should not be doing anyways. Maybe if financial, because 4-5 cottage cities could be ok in this case.

Labor - Only question is, can I avoid emancipation penalties becoming crippling? If yes, then Caste System. Slavery only if Kremlin Whipping, but I don't like that (I'd use rushbuy instead).

Economic - State Property, always.

Religion - diplomacy. It's so important here that it makes any of the civics other bonuses almost irrelevant. I'll just pick the one that favors diplomacy. If I can pick between 2 or 3 and still keep the world going my way, then I'll choose whatever fits my gameplan/empire situation the most.

[NihilZero]

Originally Posted by r_rolo1

FM gives a extra trade route. That in itself might be big enough to trump SP maintenance cut ...

It might indeed, but the real strength of SP is production, food, and convenience (no need for courthouses or corps)...as you note in your next post in fact.

@ Artichoker - it's nice when you can skip Commuism as it's a dead end, but in most cases SP is just too strong to ignore. Plus a free Great Spy is nice if you can get it.

@ Rittmeyer - your end civics are the same as mine. Rep (preferably since 800BC if I got the 'Mids ), Caste if I can possibly get away with it, and SP. Out of religion FR is my favourite but it varies from game to game, and gov depends on how many towns I have. If FS beats Bureau for science I'll switch (maybe I captured several score towns from the AI). I do use Nationhood quite often too, but rarely at the end of the game.

[mirthadir]

Originally Posted by NihilZero

Mercantilism is great when everybody is running it and SP is not available yet, and as Mirthadir mentions, trade with the AI is pretty lopsided in that they have all the multipliers up and invariably make more out of trade than you do (note how the human is almost always last in trade in the demographics screen, although that doesn't tell the whole story).



Yes, but I find that the AI has very little loyalty when it comes to the economy civics. If their favourite civic is government or religion you can usually get a lot of mileage out of it, but Mansa and Hannibal often drop FM quickly, or occasionally skip it altogether. SP is actually one of the Economy civics that AIs are likely to stay in for longer than most.

Well I was thinking more of Toko who is a pretty easy friendly with mercantilism. SB allows you to vote in favoured civic.

Regardless, keeping the AI in FM normally means sending them corps. Personally I like giving them Alco (pretty worthless), SE (competes the least with Sushi) or CM (ditto and gives worse yields and allows me to deprive them of oil). The AI is a lot less likely to drop FM if they have corps.

The other shot is just spying them into FM. Normally this is literally a spy them into friendly - vote for UN vic before they swap out. You can sometimes get Mali and Carthage out of SP if you spy them out and then drop corps.

[r_rolo1]

Originally Posted by NihilZero

It might indeed, but the real strength of SP is production, food, and convenience (no need for courthouses or corps)...as you note in your next post in fact.

Ok, i think you misunderstood me a little ...

The only warranted things you get from SP are the maintenance reduction and the 10% in prod. The first might be surpassed by it self just with FM extra trade routes ( and remember that in a lot of times, just not to say most of it, SP reduction is really only -50% , due to the previous presence of a courthouse ( even worse for HRE and Zulu ) ) and the second in itself is pretty meaningless. This leaves the workshop/watermill food bonus. True, like I said , it can be huge ... or it can be 0, depending of how much of those two improvements you have being worked.

What SP is strong in is in the rehabilitation of conquered cities, that until rehabilitation, will only be a burden. SP + workshop spam both contribute to reduce the time a conquered city will be a burden instead of a asset far more than other civics + improvements, and that is why late warmongers love it If you can pass without that, SP and workshop spam is far less shiny.

In the end , the conclusion is simple: SP is only overwhelming if you prepare your civ for it to be overwhelming In a small empire filled with villages and towns, SP will be probably even counterproductive compared with any of the alternatives except descentralization. In a big empire with little or none workshops and watermills, it might break even with FM ( depending on the avaliability of good trade routes and of a well placed FP/Versailles ) and probably beat Enviromentalism in a blink. In a big empire filled with workshops and watermills, SP rules. This is a little diferent of saying that it beats everything except in fringe cases

[Artichoker]

Originally Posted by NihilZero

@ Artichoker - it's nice when you can skip Commuism as it's a dead end, but in most cases SP is just too strong to ignore. Plus a free Great Spy is nice if you can get it.

I'm not sold on the idea of State Property being the "master" of all civics of its category. The tech situation factors in a non-trivial way. It can either swing in favor or against State Property--If you can win the free Great Spy and trade around Communism, then obviously SP becomes very attractive because you can unlock it at no cost. On the other hand, the average player, who is maybe 3rd or 4th in line for Communism, doesn't have that luxury if he goes for the tech just to unlock SP. Those beakers have an opportunity cost, by the way. For example, they could be used to go for some other tech in that era...Assembly Line, to name just one choice.

Secondly, although SP workshops and watermills are better than the ordinary, there are other types of tile improvements that gain similiar bonuses in that era...Biology Farms, Railroad Mines and Lumbermills, to name a few. Caste System has synergy with SP, but in many games Emancipation makes Caste System much weaker. Without Caste System, SP workshops on grassland are 2F3H, but you can get the same thing with a lumbermill and railroad on grassland...with an extra health bonus to boot. By the way, neither workshops nor watermills gain bonuses from railroads...

Lastly, all of these factors need to be considered in combination with what you lose by forgoing the alternatives--primarily, the bonuses of Free Market. As others have mentioned, having just Mining Inc. can alone be enough to outweigh the advantages of SP. But the trade routes are also an advantage that need to be considered.

The beaker savings made by skipping Communism and choosing Free Market is very clear and concrete in the average case (when the free GSPy and monopoly on Communism is not in hand). It is not easy to overcome in a short amount of time, if you're relying only on the strength of SP.

[Gavi Baash]

I have to agree that SP is better 90% of the time. The only other one I use late game is FM, and that was because I was a Fin leader on a map with abunch of little islands. Islands or snaky continents are the great for FM. The coast, with a Fin leader, will make some good money, plus if you can get cities on other islands you can get the overseas trade and all that. Also, there is usually a ton of seafood for Sid's, but metals for Mine Inc are pretty hard to come by.