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View Poll Results: Where should we settle next?
On our island 3 33.33%
Off our island 6 66.67%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jul 08, 2010, 06:49 PM   #1
galdarian
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Settling off island ...

and why we need to do it before we settle Singularity.

Things we know:
  • We're behind in production because of Stonehenge
  • Team CDZ have been exploring the main land for >5 turns
  • It follows that they also have a galley to transport a settler
  • We're at LEAST 8 turns away from having a Settler
  • There are no points for second place

We have a limited window in which to get a city (Asymptote) onto the Peninsular and just like Highlander; There can be only one! Ideally, depending on what is under the fog that the warrior scout can't see ATM I'm for settling on that hill.

See Pic
Spoiler:


The cost of settling off island now
  • Increased maintenance
  • Vunerable city
  • Slighty slower growth short term

The cost of NOT settling off island now
  • ~16 turns till second settler
  • Possibility of losing southern peninsular completely (Depending on where CDZ settle)
  • Probability that we lose stone resource
  • Long term WHEN we war with CDZ we will be on the back foot

From that alone I think there is a good case to settle it first. Let me throw in the steak knives to seal the deal. Singularity is uncontested by anyone provided that we settle it prior to Astronomy (>50 turns away). Money is not an issue whilst we remain a part of the ETTT. We are teching faster now than we would by ourselves and our is worth 4x normal. Granted it's still 1:1 with CDZ. I think that gives us even more reason to land grab.

Options:
  1. Switch to Settler next turn
  2. Finish worker and use him to chop the settler (-2.5T/chop)
  3. Stay the course and risk it

This is by no means an exhaustive analysis and I'd like to hear EVERYONE'S opinion. *looks at the lurkers*
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Old Jul 08, 2010, 08:07 PM   #2
RegentMan
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Settle on the mainland, definitely.

Although do we want the city to not be on the coast?
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Old Jul 08, 2010, 09:33 PM   #3
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The arguments to found our next city on the mainland are pretty pursuasive.

But i'm worried about putting a city down right away that we aren't prepared to defend against barbs and Mav/Merlot raiders.

So I'm still in favor of Singularity first. It's going to be a great production city where we can whip units to defend our mainland expansion.

Whatever we decide though I think Continuum should pump out settlers like crazy for a while.
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Old Jul 08, 2010, 09:56 PM   #4
Earthling
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I was not really in favor of worker before settler at this point anyway, but that's ok. I haven't checked, so how far into the worker are we? If it's more than one turn, we probably should finish, if not I'd switch if we want the mainland.

As things are, I'm ok with this going either way - staying with Singularity or going with the mainland. Obviously Resonance is safe/can wait either way.

Here's what I'm thinking though - I still like the original Asymptote site.

Upsides:
Coastal - for commerce, trade, buildings, etc... It'd be more productive with lighthouse, cothon, and more.
Better land blocking - I really think the coastal spot does this better. Remember, the two-tile settling rule is in force on land. So this actually blocks more tiles to the north. Otherwise, CDZ could settle right to the NE of the stone - with the coastal Asymptote, they'd have to be one further north still.
Extra City - I think the whales/southern city is almost worth getting anyway, if we settle the hill we won't be doing that

Downsides
Less Defensible - I recognize this has huge weight behind it though, but it's something I'd be willing to risk.

So for my vote, which I guess is the ultimate call, though of course team discussion and decision is great:

Switch to settling mainland unless new diplo situation with CDZ clarifies/makes things really safe. I would then settle Asymptote coastally; maybe Resonance next even and Singularity eventually after that.

Edit: Looking at how things currently are, should we consider openly discussing this subject with CDZ? Though the short end of the stick is that we really would prefer that peninsula settled by us rather than them - however it may be something significant enough to not annoy them about it. It's really unfortunate we don't have the "Desert" peninsula shared with them - noticing on the map how each team likely has one desert and one plains peninsula on either side. It's less promising for us to settle towards Mavericks and for them to settle towards CDZ since the plains land seems better.

Also, we're certainly in a weird spot where both CDZ and AMAZON are thinking that we are going to be allied with them "all the way" until we are the last two teams left. Either could of course work by me - a showdown at the end where us and CDZ or us and AMAZONs had the most land/power is fine and close enough in either case imho - and who knows it might even go to space or something non-military. However, I don't want to be confusing either of them by promising now a secret "alliance with an alliance" regarding the ETTT - keep it at the four teams for now I'd imagine.

We do always have the plus of a cultural advantage though - at the least a monument and possibly Buddhism spread will prevent them from really taking too much, even if we have to give up the stone to a city on their side of the peninsula or something.
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 08:22 AM   #5
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While I'm in support of settling off island, I think we should explore the mainland somemore. Cape Town woud be a very good city, abd if we settle more nOrth and grab Stone and the west crab, then we can settle the other area later. Cape Town can afford to work both the hills,and cane ponly manage four cottages if we ignore the hills.

But we really need that stone, especially if we pursue the Hanging Gardens.
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 09:13 AM   #6
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You guys are forgetting something, that stone can only be used by mainland cities. (That's what we've determined, right?) So, the only benefit to that spot is to beat CDZ to it. I think we need to talk with CDZ about it.
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 11:16 AM   #7
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Doesn't the culture bridge work for internal trade connections as well as naval passage?
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 05:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlemagneXLII View Post
You guys are forgetting something, that stone can only be used by mainland cities. (That's what we've determined, right?) So, the only benefit to that spot is to beat CDZ to it. I think we need to talk with CDZ about it.
If we plan on building the hanging gardens then why wouldn't we just build it there. It will be a very productive city after all.


Talk to CDZ? What would we send?
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 06:33 PM   #9
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The culture bridge definitely works for internal trade connections.

Hanging gardens is a decent wonder, I don't really expect for it to be a smart decision to spare the hammers for it anytime remotely soon though. I expect someone else will build it before it is smart for us to try to.

Because of the combination of lighthouses and sea-based food I don't think settling offshore is the smart move. If cdz rushes to the cape city or asymptote-mirror city locations and we lose one it won't really break my heart. They're not the strongest city locations around.
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Old Jul 09, 2010, 08:15 PM   #10
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If our capital can trade with mainland cities, and those cities can trade with other mainland cities of other civs, and those cities can trade with their capital, than shouldn't we be able to trade with other civs?

Asymptote will incur plenty of maintenance, and will not be connected to the main island until Resonance is built (no trade income). I would rather not rush there if it is not necessary, so asking CDZ what their intent is regarding that peninsula couldn't hurt. We also don't want this race to harm our relations.
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Old Jul 10, 2010, 12:21 AM   #11
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I was almost certain I made another post in this thread, if not and I posted elsewhere, sorry, my mistake. Anyway, my thoughts were:

-nearly 99% sure the city will be connected to our own cities at least. Again, not sure on the exact circumstances on how we get our capital connected to CDZ's capital or something, but if we settle cities, we'll have trade/their resources available in all our own cities. I think Charlemagne is right for the overall condition - I think we can trade with other civs, when both we and the other civs have mainland cities that can reach each other.

-If we need to compromise with CDZ, I'd at the least suggest sharing the stone for important wonders like the Maoi Statues, which both of our teams probably want somewhere in the not too distant future. I might guess now that the other peninsulas have marble - that would mean marble between CDZ and Merlot, and between us and Mavericks. But certainly it couldn't hurt to share/gift stone in the future if one team is not using it - and yes, I agree the city itself isn't an uber-rich site so it's not the hugest loss in the big picture if we have to yield something.

-And I'm in favor of being clear and honest about wonders to our allies, or insofar as we internally are not really set on near-future ones like the Pyramids or Library or anything as a necessity. So if this could be a beneficial part of our alliance, I'm not opposed to some discussion, or we could just keep things internal.

Edit: yeah, can't find if I misposted this elsewhere. But if we were to talk to CDZ, my recommendation would be to start with a proposal about sharing the stone resource for Maoi Statues. They probably want Maoi Statues - if not, it'll be a polite reminder, because really any team SHOULD want the wonder on this map. I'd also say - honestly, again, as far as our team discussion goes, that we're not after Pyramids/great wall/anything else right now. So if we have a reasonable agreement where, say, we could settle the city and share the stone resource, that's a fine start, rather than making this into some sort of "settler race" situation with an ally. And naturally cities clearly on our coastline (Resonance etc...) aren't threatened by CDZ and we wouldn't threaten to settle way far over on theirs right now.
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Old Jul 10, 2010, 01:08 AM   #12
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You're making way to much sense there. There are a few concerns that keep getting raised here. Maintenance is a big one. What's the cost of maintenance between the three proposed sites? (Singularity, Resonance and Asymptote)
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Old Jul 10, 2010, 05:50 PM   #13
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Umm, that sounded nice I think so thanks, but just in case I can clarify something if you really meant to say I was rambling on.

As for maintenance, it can't be more than about a 2 gpt difference, so imo, negligible.

We shouldn't actually incur "colonial maintenance" at all this game, by the way, due to vassal states turned off iirc - but even in a default game I don't think that applies until two cities. So really, we have a slightly greater distance penalty. Number of cities maintenance is not affected. Any changes to civics cost depend on population, so also not increased by Asymptote instead of Singularity.

At some point there is also a bit balanced out, by the trade routes in our cities going from 1 to 2 , due to overseas bonus. (naturally the best trade routes will be foreign, but we have none of those yet.)

The bigger difference is more on actual city development - Singularity will have two farmed wheat without out of the way effort and we're yet to have the workboat for those clams, or a worker to spare to ferry over for stone. So 10-20 turns down the line we'd have a city yielding less food/total pop and probably production too - that's the tradeoff for claiming the land and resources for our empire as a whole.

On a related note Resonance is clearly a superior site to develop over Asymptote/The Cape - rich grassland, forests to chop if we need, and double clams - but again I think we're considering the effect of claiming land and territory.

In other words - my opinion is probably that both we and CDZ are better off economically settling better sites, and if we actually came to a nice agreement as allies, we'd certainly do a little better picking that up, say, as a snug fifth city or so, about when we can afford worker time to hook up the stone/the resource actually matters to our empire. Otherwise, it's just a land rush/establishing our borders, rather than an economic matter. So I'm not against trying to work out some favorable arrangement, and again I'm happy with either decision in the end really.
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Old Jul 11, 2010, 12:32 PM   #14
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Well it looks like we have definitely decided to found our 3rd city on the mainland.

Let's explore with our warrior a bit more though before we make the final decision on city location. The stone location is looking really good right now. But who knows what other juicy resources we will uncover in the interior. It would suck to claim the barren penninsula while CDZ goes straight for the lush interior spots.

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Old Jul 11, 2010, 05:29 PM   #15
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we have about 5-8 turns (~A week real time) to make the final decision. DeNile sure will be busy.
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Old Jul 11, 2010, 08:07 PM   #16
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I thought we already had three cities on our island.

I'd prefer the third to be on our island. Doesn't change the outcome, but thought I'd clear things up with myself.
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Old Jul 11, 2010, 11:20 PM   #17
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Actually, it could, because I know it's kinda misleading, but I'm still around the fence and would change my vote, in the case of the following:

We communicate to CDZ and establish an agreement that would allow us to settle the stone city eventually, or otherwise nullify any worries about a "settler race." Again, CDZ hopefully are and remain allies for a while, so really the answer is that it does become counterproductive for us both to settle land just for the sake of land. Economically we could be better off, even if not on our mainlands (though our third mainland city is great) at least settling the most lush spots in the right order. For the stone in particular - I don't think we or CDZ would have workers ready to really get that setup yet, claiming the city now is a bit early - at the least Resonance for us, and the equivalent city (double clams, river grass, etc...) for them on their side are both better cities. Each of us trying to beat the other to the stone is an opportunity cost, I can't deny that.

Such a message we'd certainly want to word for our mutual benefit - something like

Quote:
Originally Posted by just a proposal+ideas
*various other greetings/introduction to a new message, we do need to keep up with CDZ and I know I need to help with that*

"With recent exploration on the mainland, I'm sure we are both aware there are important lands and resources to claim. One thing our team has given to much debate is construction of the Maoi Statues - is this something your people our interested in as well?

Unfortunately, while we are considering settling the site shortly we may not have stone hooked up quite so soon, but if it suits when the worker first gets it done you we could gift the resource for your use in building wonders if you need. As we would make clear to any of our ETTT allies, the Quatronian people aren't much worried about the Pyramids, Great Wall, or other upcoming projects but would certainly be glad to help our allies with whatever they are out.

One last point to consider, is that we suspect there is marble close enough by elsewhere - specifically between ourselves and India (Mavericks) and possibly you and MERLOT. Claiming these resources could be important for either of us, as we certainly cannot expect those teams to share so willingly."
If we stress sharing the resource, and more importantly suggest help with any wonders/related concerns they have, hopefully it does not come across as greedy on our part of the alliance.

But if we do not consider it wise to attempt to negotiate such things at this time - or if CDZ would not agree, then I would still be aboard just going overseas and getting the site ourselves - it is looking better/more important as time goes on.

Anyway, I certainly respect the others who still have voted clearly on overseas, just noting that I too am open to other possibilities if they have the team's support.
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Old Jul 12, 2010, 10:36 AM   #18
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I could get on board with the stone city now that the oasis is there, but I still prefer Singularity, or Resonance if we're going overseas. Of course, we're still going to settler spam to try to get the spots we don't build on first as quickly as possible.
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Old Jul 12, 2010, 10:45 AM   #19
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I think we should stick with the original 2-city plan for the peninsula (Asymptote and Cape Town). We want all of our cities to be on the water if possible.
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