Dan Carlin's Hardcore History

[DivljaJagoda]

I recently discovered this podcast and I find it great. Has anyone else listened to it? It basically looks at dark aspects of some of the popular history topics such as the Eastern Front in World War II and all the murder, rape, and savagery that occurred through it but at the same time examining the military achievements and conquests launched by both sides. Anyways, I'm currently listening to the Punic Nightmares set since I am truly fascinated by this period of history. Discuss with me any issues that you find with the podcast and I will do the same.

My only issue so far is that when discussing the Eastern Front and the drop of German power, he mentions the Italian Front after the collapse of Mussolini as a major front of the war, but fails to even mention the Yugoslav Partisan resistance which was more successful than that of the Russian resistance which he decides to address so thoroughly.

[Lord Baal]

Yugoslav partisan resistance was tremendously effective but made no real difference to the outcome of the war. It was more of a struggle for who would rule Yugoslavia after the Nazis were forced out, since they would have withdrawn pretty much exactly when they did anyway. I haven't listened to this podcast you mention, but they may well be the reason he didn't mention Tito.

[DivljaJagoda]

Well I disagree that about how you say they did not contribute to the overall war. The sheer fact that they forced Germans to pull troops from the Eastern Front in the most crucial of times, launching massive offensives (in one instance diverting 250,000 soldiers) to subdue the Partisan resistance, helped to the overall contribution of the war. It forced the Germans to be undermanned and in one source I ran across the idea that there were north-south communication lines which the Partisans were disrupting consistently, and these communication lines were important for the Germans to supply troops in North Africa. Ultimately, although not directly, the Partisans did contribute to the overall outcome of the war and helped the allies win on the European theater of the war.

[Lord Baal]

Originally Posted by DivljaJagoda

Well I disagree that about how you say they did not contribute to the overall war. The sheer fact that they forced Germans to pull troops from the Eastern Front in the most crucial of times, launching massive offensives (in one instance diverting 250,000 soldiers) to subdue the Partisan resistance, helped to the overall contribution of the war. It forced the Germans to be undermanned and in one source I ran across the idea that there were north-south communication lines which the Partisans were disrupting consistently, and these communication lines were important for the Germans to supply troops in North Africa. Ultimately, although not directly, the Partisans did contribute to the overall outcome of the war and helped the allies win on the European theater of the war.

The Germans never employed that many troops in Yugoslavia. Maybe during the invasion, but the real prize there was Greece, and Yugoslavia was simply on the way. Also, 250,000 troops, more or less, honestly wouldn't have made much of a difference on the Eastern Front for most of the war. The problem wasn't numbers so much as supplies. An extra quarter of a million troops may actually have been bad for the Germans; more troops to starve.

Any source saying that communications lines in Yugoslavia were of the slightest importance to North Africa has no idea what they're talking about. Erwin Rommel received both orders and supplies through Italy and Tunisia, not the Balkans. Maybe the partisans could have gone as far north as Venetia and attempted to disrupt communications between Germany and Italy, but I sincerely doubt it. For one thing, local Italian partisans would have fought them as much as the German and Italian armies, as Yugoslavia and Italy had a long-running border dispute and their respective nationalists despised one another.

[LightSpectra]

Originally Posted by DivljaJagoda

Well I disagree that about how you say they did not contribute to the overall war. The sheer fact that they forced Germans to pull troops from the Eastern Front in the most crucial of times, launching massive offensives (in one instance diverting 250,000 soldiers) to subdue the Partisan resistance, helped to the overall contribution of the war. It forced the Germans to be undermanned and in one source I ran across the idea that there were north-south communication lines which the Partisans were disrupting consistently, and these communication lines were important for the Germans to supply troops in North Africa. Ultimately, although not directly, the Partisans did contribute to the overall outcome of the war and helped the allies win on the European theater of the war.

The way you're describing it, the Eastern Front was a close call for the Soviets. In reality, the Germans had almost inevitably lost by the end of 1941.

[DivljaJagoda]

Lord Baal, you seem to believe that the war in Yugoslavia with the Germans was essentially over with their initial invasion on April 6, of 1941, when in reality it wasn't. True, Yugoslavia was initially invaded because it was on the road to Greece and Greece was seen to have been the more troublesome of the two (Yugoslavia also not being trusted however by Hitler, with the recent coup).

The Balkans in entirety were important for the Germans because this is where they acquired "50 percent of their oil, all of their chrome, 60 percent of their bauxite, 24 percent of their antimony and 21 percent of their copper." (cited from German Anti-Guerilla Operations in the Balkans).

In terms of the battle numbers, I don't have my source on the exact number of units deployed in operation Weiss, which was the fourth major offensive that the Germans launched against the Partisans in Yugoslavia but I have that they deployed "7 SS Prinz Eugene Division, the 369 Legionary Teuffel Division and the 714 German Division." (Book called Tito, by Dedijer). Not to mention, that in this battle the Germans got the local Serb Cetniks to fight the Partisans. In the fifth anti-Partisan offensive the Germans used 12 divisions of about 100,000 total units (Book by Neil Barnett). In total, the Germans launched seven offensives which diverted troops from their fronts to combat the Partisans. Weiss, occured during the German siege of Stalingrad and the fifth offensive occured in May of 1943. You say that supplies were more the issue than numbers. So the same argument can be made against you about all these numbers that the Germans continually poured into an area that they captured within twelve days after their initial invasion in 1941. Did they not require supplies themselves that could have been a huge benefit to the Russians?

P.S. I said that they disrupted the North-South lines because I got such information from a scholar on the issue in the book Tito, Mihailovic, and the Allies 1941- 1945 by Walter Roberts. Saying that my source doesn't know what he's talking about seems kind of childish.

[Dachs]

How hardcore can the history be if it's about the Second World War?

[Lord of Elves]

Originally Posted by Dachs

How hardcore can the history be if it's about the Second World War?

The Second World War is probably the first conflict in history to which film is readily available, had a massive effect on the modern world, is generally without controversy but for neo-Nazis, and historical figures involved are just distant enough to be able to commentated on.

Unfortunately, this leads to an over-abundance of documentaries on the subject, not to mention the proliferated and multifarious Second World War shooting and strategy games, and dozens of television documentaries. Therefore, the topic becomes so common-place in historical or pseudo-historical circles that it is reduced to triviality. At least, that's my opinion.

[Dachs]

That was my point, more or less.

[Lord of Elves]

Although, I think discussion is more than warranted, because by the same token since Second World War history "theory", has been mass produced, it has been in my opinion simplified for public consumption. So if someone wants to approach the Second World War from an academic standpoint, points to them. In a better world, it might even foster public awareness of actual history, instead of "Durr, Germans are evil, they invade small countries and kill Jewish people, durr George Washington fought the British with a giant panzer tank and had grenades for hands."

[DivljaJagoda]

Well the podcast does not just cover the Second World War. It goes over many events such as the Punic Wars, the fall of Rome etc...Also, however it covers different topics like the history of slavery and the ethics behind it. I enjoy the show and recommend it to you all to at least check out. It does portray a scholarly view on the issue.

[Dachs]

I might go hear the fall of Rome one if I feel sufficiently bored.

[Glassfan]

I subscribe to Carlin's Hardcore History Podcast - it only comes out every couple of months. As a complete amature, he doesn't worry about offending professionals or negative criticism, so he says some outrageously entertaining things. The current episode is about the Gracchi (Spell?) Brothers in the late Republic. He goes off on tangents, and is politically incorrect. I don't judge him the same way we might judge, oh say, Barbra Tuchman.

[Louis XXIV]

DivljaJagoda, is there a link?

[deanej]

www.dancarlin.com - this also has his other show, Common Sense

[DivljaJagoda]

Yes you can go to that website but I don't know if you can download pod-casts from it. I know you can buy old pod-casts from that site. Otherwise you can download his current pod-casts by using Itunes and then going to the Itunes store and searching Dan Carlin. The pod-casts are free to download from there but you may need an account with Itunes.

[deanej]

You can download anything from show 18 and later from there as well as get the feeds.

[DivljaJagoda]

On the website?

[deanej]

From the main page, click on the enter Hardcore History link, then "See Archive" under the "Listen to the Podcast" section, and under each title is a "Download MP3" link.

[DivljaJagoda]

Ah, I found it, but its only the episodes that are also on itunes. :/


Also...if anyone has any other history podcasts that are good in their opinion, please recommend them to me as I am always looking for good pod-casts to listen to.