Worst wonder?

[itg]

Sorry if this has been done before, but these poll threads always generate a lot of interesting discussion even so. Since polls are limited to 25 options, I left out the Pyramids, the Great Lighthouse, the Great Library, the AP and UN, the Sistine Chapel, the Great Wall, the Oracle, and the Kremlin.

Edit: by the way, I threw in the internet since I miscounted and left a slot open. It's not technically a wonder, but whatever.

[*Svart*]

you left all the wonders actually... you didn't post the poll

btw cicciaitza it's the worst

[itg]

Wow, quick response. I guess the forum added the post while I was writing the poll .

Edit: I voted Versailles myself, btw. Chichen Itza at least has denial value, but any game where I have an empire big enough to benefit from a second Forbidden Palace, I certainly am not going to research a dead-end religious tech and then throw down 800 hammers on it.

[Ghpstage]

Chicken Pizza, costing the same as the Pyramids while offering almost no benefit nothing else even comes close!

-Edit, hmm forgot to consider the Space Elevator. A wonder that gives a bonus to something, while in practice usually makes you take even longer to get a Spaceship complete is worse than usless... thinking about the worst is awkward, its too easy to forget things that you would never build anyway.

[lymond]

I disagree on Versailles. To criticize a wonder based on the tech doesn't seem accurate to me. Granted DR is something a rarely tech, but the actual benefit of Versailles can be quite nice in certain games and DR is something that is EASILY traded for if you want it.

Chichen Itza is something a lot of folks dog as a bad wonder and I agree somewhat, but the benefit is at least tangible.

My vote goes to the STATUE OF ZEUS. This is THE one wonder in the game that has has a bonus/effect that is negligible to nil. The impact of war weariness on the AI almost non-existent. I would only build this for fail gold. (Multiplayer might be a different story but I assume this poll is single player focused)

[*Svart*]

uuuh also agia sophia is horrible. It is not too bad... but usually become obsolete just as soon as you finish to build it

[Windsor]

Originally Posted by lymond

My vote goes to the STATUE OF ZEUS. This is THE one wonder in the game that has has a bonus/effect that is negligible to nil. )

Cheap wonder that gives you +10 It's not very hot, but have secured my borders in many games.

[itg]

Originally Posted by lymond

I disagree on Versailles. To criticize a wonder based on the tech doesn't seem accurate to me. Granted DR is something a rarely tech, but the actual benefit of Versailles can be quite nice in certain games and DR is something that is EASILY traded for if you want it.

You can't judge wonders in a vacuum. Required techs matter. Take the Space Elevator, for example. One of the main reasons it's bad is that you have to detour to robotics. When it comes to Versailles, trading for DR might mean skipping out on a trade for engineering, or hitting trade caps earlier than necessary. Plus, you're already way behind in the wonder race if you've traded for the tech.

[Absolute Zero]

I voted Space Elevator. Not only does it not even come into play in many games, in the few where it does, it doesn't help - in fact, it usually hurts. If you have Robotics (or whatever tech is required to build it, I don't remember), why not build the corresponding space ship part (I think it's Docking Bay?) instead?

Edit: Ah, yes, it is Robotics, as confirmed by the post right above me.

[obsolete]

-Edit, hmm forgot to consider the Space Elevator.

You're most likely using it wrong.

@ Lymond, you may have some merrit with SoZ, however I do build this quite often time to time because the culture helps you get out of pinches.

Agia Sophia is the one I always avoid. I can't believe the AI even beelines it so hard, but Firaxis never thought any of that out. I'm sure they still think it's an amazing wonder.

[Robo-Star]

Originally Posted by obsolete

You're most likely using it [the Space Elevator] wrong.

Explain.

Although, I already voted for it in the poll.
-

[TheMeInTeam]

The internet is NOT a wonder, so no failvotes on it . It can't possibly be worst wonder since it is a project.

And man, deciding between Chichen Itza and Space Elevator is really hard. I think I'll vote SE for its bad acronym and because it has way too many fanboys gushing on it as actually worth something in > 1% of games. At least Itza has some early-ish GPP and some minute military application...and if you have it the AI does not. Space elevator winds up slowing people down as much as it helps, meaning the AI pursuing it might be a GOOD thing X_X. They really didn't think it through when they moved its reqs in BTS.

Quite a few of them are so much better that they don't even belong on the poll:

AW - potential for GPP, and good specs, though admittedly one of the weaker remainders

Broadway/Holly/R&R - Each of these gives you 50% culture in the city that makes them, but more importantly HUGE trade value. People love gushing over shrines and such blah blah. Sell these resources for as much GPT as most shrines, and/or trade them to boost up and health even further than their base benefit. These are above-average wonders.

MoM - There's a reason a lot of early space win games involve this. The one knock on it is that it is difficult to get it...unless you take it.

Notre Dame - Also not very great, given alternative means for . It's not BAD, but like MoM the AI loves the tech to which it is attached, making it difficult to get cost effectively. Still better than CI or SE due to a tangible, consistent benefit. You don't mind capturing this one either .

Paya - Highly situational, but good when you have gold, in tense religious situations, or for early philosophy w/o the tech (speed astro bulb?). Not bad with gold for keeping tiles.

Stonehenge - It's overrated by most rookie-mid level players, but it isn't awful by any stretch. On maps where land is not heavily contended the GPP and reduced hammer cost of new cities are welcome. PHI can abuse it to set up an AP cheese game too.

Colossus - You might as well just include mids and GLH on the list . When the colossus is good, it is VERY good. With copper it's dirt cheap as far as wonders go, and colossus coast > non riverside cottages for the entire time colossus is in effect. This wonder is a big boost...if you have the coastal cities to merit it.

E. Tower - Not a big fan of it. I'd only put it a little ahead of CI and SE.

Hagia Sophia - Another sub-par wonder. The usual problem with serfdom crops up here too: by the time you can actually build this in ancient starts, you already needed enough workers to get by without it :/.

Parthenon - With marble, the GPP from this is really sound. I don't see how it's on the list.

Pentagon - You know its uses. War. Great for 5xp w/o war civics or for pushing you over the edge for spamming 10 xp guys in your best cities. AI doesn't like AL in a lot of games, lowering its opp cost. Not the best wonder ever, but good.

Spiral/Sankore - Interesting that sistine and AP didn't make the list (OK, the AP is broken and if used to potential the #1 wonder, so nevermind). The important thing to note about these is that you don't have to FOUND religion to get their benefit. In other words, they're decent. Sankore, in particular, is clean on the lib path and a good pickup for IND or anyone with stone. Spiral is a little less conventional but not bad.

SoZ - It has important denial value, but with ivory can be used to keep away AI culture press since it is cheap, too. Not great, but when the guy you're fighting has it, you wish you did :/.

Taj - HAHA! This wonder is on the list!

2nd Forbidden Palace - It's a bit too expensive, and somewhat impractical to use. A sub par wonder, though often if you COULD get it realistically, you'd want to do so. Trash on pangaea though, actually worse than CI but still better than SE

Temple of Artemis - 5 GPP is behind only the great library. In a coastal capitol it can create a significant boost around bureaucracy times too. A worthwhile play with a hammer cap and marble.

Three Gorges Dam - Not great because by then most cities have power. I've seen it help games w/o coal though.

Edit: @ Obsolete

You are the only elite player I know that supports space elevator. If you can put a convincing argument in favor of it, I might change my opinion of the thing. IMO, it wasn't bad until BTS, when it was made to require robotics. Robotics is NOT a necessary space tech, so the only way to get space elevator is:

1. Specifically delay researching another spaceship tech in favor of it or

2. Pick it up from the internet.

I'm not going to address getting it through the internet too much...USUALLY, by then you've already put together a good part of the ship and the odds of getting material benefit aren't very good. That leaves us with a justification to tech robotics in the first place. I can only think of 1 way to go about that...

a) Computers ----> Internet -----> Robotics -----> SE, then BACKFILL even as far back as rocketry, literally waiting on most space parts until you've completed the elevator. Unless I'm mistaken, this is your approach.

I'm not convinced on the merits of teching robotics in the first place, and this is where space elevator loses all of its time! Most of the empires I've ever seen, mine or otherwise, can pound out space parts faster than they can research the technologies. You'd probably have to be in the department of 2500-3000 beakers/turn or more and/or completely lack aluminum to make production the actual bottleneck. Even then, an empire that can sustain that rate could probably keep up in parts.

One possible argument for going robotics is that the AI will then cover space techs you'd otherwise research yourself, so you might as well go robotics ----> in practice, I don't see this being the case, as the AI is a bit slow getting fusion AND genetics, worthy goals post-internet.

I don't see where it comes out ahead. Even if you put up robotics in 8 turns, you'd still have to build SE probably concurrently with parts and research your final techs. I don't see SE effects dropping the aggregate total time a city spends building parts in any one city by that.

So what IS your justification for the thing? How DO you use it properly?!

[*Svart*]

who vote for the temple of arthemis? not a big deal... but a decent one!

[itg]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Quite a few of them are so much better that they don't even belong on the poll

I'm well aware, haha. The thing is, I had all these empty poll slots that looked so cold and lonely... Ultimately, I just wanted to make sure no one would complain that I left a really bad wonder off the list. Don't take it as, "the wonders I left off are the only ones worth building."

[Issus]

aluminum + rush-buy = fast space elevator

[ParadigmShifter]

Space Elevator but Versailles (very expensive) and Chicken Pizza (poor) come pretty close. Hagia Sophia is rubbish too unless you want Great Engineer points, that's about all it is good for.

[Ataxerxes]

Originally Posted by Issus

aluminum + rush-buy = fast space elevator

Great Engineer can help here too. But the hammers to build it isn't the problem. It's the cost of researching Robotics. I used to think it was great, then I tried doing space without Robotics. A couple of turns faster. Even in an OCC, it doesn't seem to speed up the space race, and that's saying a lot. If you have aluminum, the parts are cheap anyway. If you need Mech Infantry, then may as well build it.

SE can occasionally help, but going for it will often hurt. I vote for Chicken Pizza. Cowering behind powerful city walls while I'm pillaged to hell doesn't sound good.

[azzaman333]

Chicken Pizza.

[Earthling]

Originally Posted by lymond

My vote goes to the STATUE OF ZEUS. This is THE one wonder in the game that has has a bonus/effect that is negligible to nil. The impact of war weariness on the AI almost non-existent. I would only build this for fail gold. (Multiplayer might be a different story but I assume this poll is single player focused)

It's a very useful wonder for cultural games alone, that actually should be enough to not vote for it as the worst. But on top of that, it's really cheap especially with ivory, it counts for denial so the AI doesn't have it as much as any other wonder, and it actually does contribute to your "power" on the power graph, without costing you units. And the AI does suffer some war weariness (far better in BtS than vanilla iirc, in vanilla it really did shrug it off like upgrade costs and other things too). Especially in naval/water heavy maps this could be a factor, where you are just fighting defensively.

Space Elevator is bad but there are situations where it is possible you would build it - say you are behind in tech and acquire Robotics through the Internet, then it could help speed up your Spaceship/last part when you get to Fusion or something.

So I voted Chichen Itza - trash all around, expensive, poor GPP, benefit is useless.

[madviking]

Is it me, or does SE cost as much as a few SS components? You'll be better putting your hammers to actually building SS components.