Worst wonder?

[MilesBeyond]

The SE seems to be a lost cause in general because making it earlier doesn't really make sense because it's a "Future" wonder (i.e. something that hasn't actually been built yet) but keeping it at the period it's at just makes it useless.

Personally, I would always prize game balance over realism. I wouldn't care if the SE came with Chemistry if that's what it took to make it a feasible wonder.

In SMAC the SE allowed whoever built it to air-drop troops anywhere on the map. That's tempting, but would it be enough... (generally if military victory is your goal, you probably wouldn't need a boost that significant by the Future era). Maybe just make it give a flat +100% to hammers in all cities? A free nuke in every city? Automatic victory?

[El_Machinae]

Well, the Space Elevator makes sense in the real world because we don't expect our lifeplans to suddenly reboot. I often build it, because I am a fanboi, but its timing is completely off - from a game perspective.

[faipalgugus]

Originally Posted by King Flevance

Meh, all of those still don't offer it any credibility to me. None of those things will help you win the game. Especially, at that point in the game. About the only one being called into question that I would rank along side it is the space elevator. But even then if you can have a GE "pop it" and have aluminum it isn't too bad.
CR sucks even when you have it. At least the SE can speed up a victory in a rare scenario. CR doesn't aid in that. Slave and draft abuse are alright, as they may speed up a domination. But at this stage in the game your domination should be in the bag. Time is much better spent building more military to speed it along.

I think the Sophia and the Itza are decent if you can obtain them early. CR and SE can't really offer much even if you attain them "early". This may be a difficulty setting thing but CR just isn't that attractive where it is on the tech tree. Maybe if it came a few techs sooner.

Sorry, it's a very old thread but i'm really upset by this post.

CR is awesome and i already won a couple of games at immortal with this wonder alone. When a powerful ai enter in a WHEOOHRN mode, you know that you will be his victim and you can't bribe another ai because your agressor is loved, switching into another civic/religion and forcing the ai to switch into it as well by espionage can save your game, i was able to bribe immediately some ai against him and i won a space victory peacefully. It's a common tactic, i use it often, so it's a very strong wonder.

I'm shocked by the amount of votes for internet. It's an incredible project. Seriously, i laught at some dude who claim that "they are an age ahead the ai by this time" blablabla... I don't know, if you win that easily, raise the level, no? If you can outech easily the ai in deity, well, you're a dude, but otherwise, i don't see the point to play at a difficulty level where you can win easily.

Personnaly i almost always play at a level where i lose more often than not, immortal, i win 1/3 game, and when i win, it's rarely easy. Sometimes i play at monarch when i wan to win easily but it's boring, i can't imagine playing below my level regulary.

[AgressiveWimp]

I would say the worst wonder is the UN, because everybody ends up hating me (because of course I'm not going to give you civil service or whatever for free, tokugawa) so I never get any votes, I never have a high enough score to even be a candidate, and my population is never high enough to have more than about 60 votes.

But since the UN wasn't an option... I voted Hagia Sophia, because I can get the same result with Serfdom (minus the culture and GPP) and I don't need to compete with other civs to build serfdom. I hardly notice the difference of +50% worker productivity anyway.

[Ataxerxes]

Originally Posted by AgressiveWimp

I would say the worst wonder is the UN, because everybody ends up hating me (because of course I'm not going to give you civil service or whatever for free, tokugawa) so I never get any votes, I never have a high enough score to even be a candidate, and my population is never high enough to have more than about 60 votes.

But since the UN wasn't an option... I voted Hagia Sophia, because I can get the same result with Serfdom (minus the culture and GPP) and I don't need to compete with other civs to build serfdom. I hardly notice the difference of +50% worker productivity anyway.

Hagia Sofia stacks with serfdom. So it provides a further benefit. That said, Hagia Sofia is a very weak wonder due more to it's going obsolete, and few players like Serfdom (Slavery is very powerful). However, Chichen Itza is more useless. I've changed my mind and am now convinced the worst is Space Elevator because going for it hurts you in 99% of the games. It only helps in very unusual OCC games.

UN is a wonder that can win you the game so it wasn't included. I often use it when I use a rifle/cannon push to start for domination. Usually I just build the UN halfway to domination and my vassals and I vote me the winner. I like Diplomation victories - they usually score better than waiting for the world to submit by total force.

@failpugugus:

King Flevance was crazy - you're arguing with a ghost. Reasonable players knew he was wrong and argued against him for a while - a lot of discussion in the past went into proving him wrong. For a proof of the value of the Internet (not technically a wonder) look back at the screenshot from the player who got over a dozen techs from the Internet. Internet can save the game for you, I've seen it happen.

I don't mind the raising of this thread - it was a lot of fun.

[calibur]

Originally Posted by faipalgugus

Sorry, it's a very old thread but i'm really upset by this post.

CR is awesome and i already won a couple of games at immortal with this wonder alone. When a powerful ai enter in a WHEOOHRN mode, you know that you will be his victim and you can't bribe another ai because your agressor is loved, switching into another civic/religion and forcing the ai to switch into it as well by espionage can save your game, i was able to bribe immediately some ai against him and i won a space victory peacefully. It's a common tactic, i use it often, so it's a very strong wonder.

I'm shocked by the amount of votes for internet. It's an incredible project. Seriously, i laught at some dude who claim that "they are an age ahead the ai by this time" blablabla... I don't know, if you win that easily, raise the level, no? If you can outech easily the ai in deity, well, you're a dude, but otherwise, i don't see the point to play at a difficulty level where you can win easily.

Personnaly i almost always play at a level where i lose more often than not, immortal, i win 1/3 game, and when i win, it's rarely easy. Sometimes i play at monarch when i wan to win easily but it's boring, i can't imagine playing below my level regulary.

I, while I never play to an actual victory, basically play a level until I am able to in multiple games be the greatest in all aspects.
However, even when I am losing, I am still ahead of the AI in tech. Not light years, mind you, but ahead. I still play at a fairly low level.

[Antilogic]

Cristo Redentor would be infinitely more awesome if it showed up earlier in the game.

[Quintillus]

I built the Space Elevator in my last game. I thought it was a fair investment, although I think I did have an engineer waiting for it. Robotics didn't take too long to research, and had some benefit anyway, and I'd only built the Apollo Program and no SS parts prior to the Elevator, so the discount was well worth it in shields. To be fair, I only had two cities, and nearly all my production was in one of them. And I still lost the game, since I was too far behind when I built the Elevator to catch up. But I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be.

It would be more useful if you could build it farther away from the equator; I've had a couple games where I wanted to build it but couldn't because of that.

Originally Posted by Antilogic

Cristo Redentor would be infinitely more awesome if it showed up earlier in the game.

I agree. I can't think of a time I've ever built it and used its benefit... I did build it a couple times because I had nothing else to build, but I'd almost always prefer Rock 'N Roll or the Eiffel Tower when I get around to researching Radio.

Mostly, I'm not switching civics/religion at that point. I tend to go either Free Market or State Property, so there's no Environmentalism switch. And everything else is usually available prior to Radio, so I've already switched in those categories. Even religion, I'm usually either committed to my state religion, or already Free Religion by that point... I just don't have much of a use case for it. So it gets my vote as "worst wonder" for me.

I hardly ever build Versailles, either, but sometimes there are cases where I'd like to. And if captured and in the right location, it can be useful. So I see more use cases for it.

faipalgugus's Cristo Rendentor tactic just seems way too gamey to me.

[nerdfighter13]

Versailles for me. I get the same effect from the Forbidden Palace, and I have to research Divine Right. It's just not normally worth it for me. However, I think all wonders have a purpose in some situation.

[Infantry#14]

I vote for Space Elevator. 50% bonus is not much when I already have other bonuses from Al, production and power.

A good way to beef up Space Elevator may be allow you to select and finish 2 space parts instantly. Kind of like Oracle and Liberalism for space ship parts.

[Antilogic]

Originally Posted by Quintillus

I agree. I can't think of a time I've ever built it and used its benefit... I did build it a couple times because I had nothing else to build, but I'd almost always prefer Rock 'N Roll or the Eiffel Tower when I get around to researching Radio.

Mostly, I'm not switching civics/religion at that point. I tend to go either Free Market or State Property, so there's no Environmentalism switch. And everything else is usually available prior to Radio, so I've already switched in those categories. Even religion, I'm usually either committed to my state religion, or already Free Religion by that point... I just don't have much of a use case for it. So it gets my vote as "worst wonder" for me.

I hardly ever build Versailles, either, but sometimes there are cases where I'd like to. And if captured and in the right location, it can be useful. So I see more use cases for it.

faipalgugus's Cristo Rendentor tactic just seems way too gamey to me.

The utility of CR and the Spiritual trait is in how gamey you play it. And if CR showed up earlier, it'd basically be a third trait for any non-Spiritual civ.

[Lord Silverkey]

Mausoleum of Maussollos for me. I almost never use Golden Ages, (Other than with the Taj Mahal) and don't care much for Great Artists, so it's basically a culture building for me.

[Funky]

For me it's Chichen Itza and Hagia Sophia, which are both completely useless for me the way my games usually go.

Regarding the Space Elevator on the other hand, it may be a questionable wonder using default settings. However, with the settings I use - K-Mod, Immortal, no tech trading/brokering; I like being behind and having to struggle - the AIs are often ahead of me in the late game. In these cases I am forced to start a war, sometimes against two huge and advanced Civs simultaneously, in order to deny them their victory. I will desperately be churning out units and have no time to build any spaceship parts. Mech Infantry is a very useful unit for late-game wars so I will tech robotics anyway.
When I do eventually find time to build my spaceship, having the space elevator is very helpful. I may have denied one Civ their victory by destroying their capital after they lanched their ship, or razed one of their legendary cities. But meanwhile other Civs may be striving for victory, and having the SE may make the difference between winning or losing.
In fact, the different settings used by players may be the reason why the benefits of the SE are so heavily disputed; for some settings it's useless, for others it's a very beneficial wonder.

[TheMeInTeam]

But since the UN wasn't an option... I voted Hagia Sophia, because I can get the same result with Serfdom (minus the culture and GPP) and I don't need to compete with other civs to build serfdom. I hardly notice the difference of +50% worker productivity anyway.

If you don't start in an era where it starts unlocked, you should virtually never be in serfdom.

Also, UN candidates are 1) whoever built it and 2) next highest person in population other than guy who built it. Considering you can win with it, it has no place on a list like this .

Cristo Redentor would be infinitely more broken if it showed up earlier in the game.

Fixed . Combined with the "influence civic" and "influence religion" missions, a 1 turn crossover in civic switch w/o anarchy would allow for some of the more flagrant abuses of diplomacy the civilization series has ever seen . Religious group hug? Naaaah. I'm taoist now...and so are you! But next turn, I'm buddhist again, and Izzy joins the tag team DoW...

I built the Space Elevator in my last game. I thought it was a fair investment, although I think I did have an engineer waiting for it. Robotics didn't take too long to research, and had some benefit anyway, and I'd only built the Apollo Program and no SS parts prior to the Elevator, so the discount was well worth it in shields. To be fair, I only had two cities, and nearly all my production was in one of them. And I still lost the game, since I was too far behind when I built the Elevator to catch up. But I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be.

It is hands down the worst wonder in the game (in BTS) and researching robotics to attain it almost guaranteed you a slower finish.

A good way to beef up Space Elevator may be allow you to select and finish 2 space parts instantly. Kind of like Oracle and Liberalism for space ship parts.

Either that, or make it available earlier on and from techs that are actually required for a space victory. Even very production-weak empires tend to wind up with a tech bottleneck (I've had empires of nothing but cottage-carpet still have the bottleneck in tech, not ), so any effort to get robotics is an instant loss of time. You'd need to get robotics from the internet, have the AI not build SE themselves in that time span, have two engineers handy, AND not have them provide more benefit by simply doing a golden age...and even then the SE only saves 1-2 turns!

Mausoleum of Maussollos for me. I almost never use Golden Ages, (Other than with the Taj Mahal) and don't care much for Great Artists, so it's basically a culture building for me.

Not using extremely powerful features does not rationally qualify them as the worst in the game.

Regarding the Space Elevator on the other hand, it may be a questionable wonder using default settings. However, with the settings I use - K-Mod, Immortal, no tech trading/brokering; I like being behind and having to struggle - the AIs are often ahead of me in the late game. In these cases I am forced to start a war, sometimes against two huge and advanced Civs simultaneously, in order to deny them their victory. I will desperately be churning out units and have no time to build any spaceship parts. Mech Infantry is a very useful unit for late-game wars so I will tech robotics anyway.
When I do eventually find time to build my spaceship, having the space elevator is very helpful. I may have denied one Civ their victory by destroying their capital after they lanched their ship, or razed one of their legendary cities. But meanwhile other Civs may be striving for victory, and having the SE may make the difference between winning or losing.

Did kmod change the techs required for it? If not, then building it was still an awful idea. If you have the oomph to beat down a space-launch AI and teched robotics, you were not making a serious play at space. It's very easy to build a ship and launch it when everybody else who could realistically do so is dead. Use those hammers on a couple nukes or something and win faster.

In fact, the different settings used by players may be the reason why the benefits of the SE are so heavily disputed; for some settings it's useless, for others it's a very beneficial wonder.

Show me a game where you haven't researched robotics yet and are actually attempting a space win, and I'll show you a game where pursuing the space elevator slows down your win.

Long ago I made a challenge thread: Show me a game where SE makes your time faster rather than slower. Years later, not one person has managed to do it. "depends on settings" my foot. Maybe if you start in future era and don't just kill everybody.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by Lord Silverkey

...... I almost never use Golden Ages......

Wow! I don't even know what to say

Originally Posted by Sir Phil

....and from techs that are actually required for a space victory

I think that right there would add a lot more value to the Space Elevator, but still probably dependent on the makeup of your empire.

[Funky]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Did kmod change the techs required for it? If not, then building it was still an awful idea. If you have the oomph to beat down a space-launch AI and teched robotics, you were not making a serious play at space. It's very easy to build a ship and launch it when everybody else who could realistically do so is dead. Use those hammers on a couple nukes or something and win faster.

I think you missed my point. In my last game for example, Hannibal had half of his spaceship ready while I hadn't researched a single spaceship part tech yet. War was the only solution. I prioritized robotics, since I wanted to have mech infantry to help me in the war (I not only had to invade him on his continent, he also sent a stack to attack me, and mech infantry proved useful). A few turns before his ship had reached its destination, I managed to raze his capital and make peace a few rounds later. Meanwhile Hammurabi had begun his spaceship, so he had a headstart. I had saved an engineer to construct the elevator, and quickly changed production in all my cities to spaceship parts. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made it in time without it.

I repeat, I realize the SE is usually useless (or worse) with default settings. But with the settings I use (especially the no tech-trading), my games often run like the one I described, and there are several AIs competing for space victory (with me usually lagging behind and having to go to war to stop them before I can build my own ship). In such games, the SE can make all the difference.

[faipalgugus]

I only built the Space elevator one time. But it was because i was confortably ahead with a sure space win, i just wanted to have fun because i had 11 commando infantry, so i upgrade them to meca in order to blitz some ai out of the map.

In a tight game, it is basically useless unless you got the tech in a deal or with internet. Robotics is way too costly

[AgressiveWimp]

I don't understand why everyone thinks Chichen Itza is so useless. Given the fact that I'm constantly attacked, I need all the defence bonuses I can get, and it still provides culture and GPP.

And what's wrong with the Space Elevator? Its effect of +50% spaceship production for all cities stacks with +100% for building the spaceship pieces, so I find it rather useful for the space race victory. (So long as I can get the required techs before somebody beats the crap out of me) I think its only downside is that it can only be built in a city at less that 30 degrees latitude.
One time I was aiming for the space race victory and in a desperate attempt to stop me, three or so superpowers all ganged up on me but I was able to finish the spaceship just before they extincted me. So I think the space elevator saved me. (This was in the original Civ IV, not BTS by the way)

[lymond]

Originally Posted by AgressiveWimp

Given the fact that I'm constantly attacked

Well, this is a major problem that you need to remedied and seems to be a major theme in your posts here. Experienced players have the ability to often avoid these confrontations. It's called diplomacy or going on the offensive.

Itza provide a very marginal benefit empire-wide. It's a nice fail gold wonder though if you have stone. I don't worry about defensive bonuses because I use offense as my defense.

Space Elevator was a good wonder prior to BTS, AW. BTS changed the tech requirement

[Antilogic]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Fixed . Combined with the "influence civic" and "influence religion" missions, a 1 turn crossover in civic switch w/o anarchy would allow for some of the more flagrant abuses of diplomacy the civilization series has ever seen . Religious group hug? Naaaah. I'm taoist now...and so are you! But next turn, I'm buddhist again, and Izzy joins the tag team DoW...

Seems like you read my mind. Also related: why Antilogic thinks Spiritual has been a heavily underrated trait amongst new players.