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View Poll Results: What is the worst world wonder?
Angkor Wat 24 4.67%
Broadway 2 0.39%
Chichen Itza 177 34.44%
Cristo Redentor 17 3.31%
Hollywood 2 0.39%
Mausoleum of Maussollos 9 1.75%
Notre Dame 1 0.19%
Rock 'n' Roll 2 0.39%
Shwedagon Paya 25 4.86%
Stonehenge 6 1.17%
The Colossus 0 0%
The Eiffel Tower 2 0.39%
The Hagia Sophia 36 7.00%
The Hanging Gardens 0 0%
The Parthenon 1 0.19%
The Pentagon 5 0.97%
The Space Elevator 112 21.79%
The Spiral Minaret 2 0.39%
The Statue of Zeus 11 2.14%
The Taj Mahal 7 1.36%
The Temple of Artemis 10 1.95%
The Three Gorges Dam 3 0.58%
University of Sankore 4 0.78%
Versailles 12 2.33%
The Internet 44 8.56%
Voters: 514. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jul 23, 2010, 08:50 PM   #41
qyll
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Space Elevator is quite terrible. Opportunity cost is way too high.

Internet doesn't do anything for me in most games but I've also had games where it secured my victory.

Hagia Sophia is pretty terrible as well.

Cristo is indispensable if you're doing some late game warring and need to switch between universal suffrage for rush buying and police state for production/lowering war weariness.

But I voted for Chichen Itza because it's just abysmal. All your cities get an extra defense bonus during an era when you should be peacemongering. Even if you ARE warring, that extra cultural defense only kicks in if you're on defensive, which you never want to be unless you're playing to some specific protective/defense strategy.
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 08:57 PM   #42
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I disagree about CI, folks...
It gives you a boost in your defense rating, which the AI, I believe takes into account when planning. Therefore, it can keep you at peace when you might otherwise have been bogged down in war.

That being said, I rarely build it.
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 09:18 PM   #43
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I disagree about CI, folks...
It gives you a boost in your defense rating, which the AI, I believe takes into account when planning. Therefore, it can keep you at peace when you might otherwise have been bogged down in war.

That being said, I rarely build it.
Yeah, that's not realistic. At all. The war mechanics make it totally impractical to deter DoW with power unless you have an obscene lead.
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 09:26 PM   #44
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For the top neighbors, maybe, but your immediate neighbors?
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 09:59 PM   #45
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It's not going to deter the AI, at all. It helps you defend when they do attack (which might be the point, if you have GW/Imp or a sticky diplomatic position), but usually not as much as a dozen axemen. Actually, the axemen are a better deterrent too.

The CI is mostly useful when you lack both engineering and horses, and you have a long frontier to defend. It might buy your SoD an extra turn. Lame, but not the worst wonder. Just close.
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 10:15 PM   #46
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I am fairly certain you are wrong, but I could be wrong.

Defense factor plays into ratings... including power.

Example, AI Turkey in RFC Europe doesn't always attack COnstantinople's 200% defense... because it is a hard task.
Does this not transfer to regular Civ4 BTS?
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 10:26 PM   #47
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I think the effect on power of CI is less than if you used those shields to build knights or something. Knights are definitely more tangible.

And when are you going to bank on defense to stop wars?
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Old Jul 23, 2010, 10:40 PM   #48
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I think the effect on power of CI is less than if you used those shields to build knights or something. Knights are definitely more tangible.

And when are you going to bank on defense to stop wars?
Ummm... are you kidding with that question? A good defense (read power score) stops the AI from DoWing ALL THE TIME.

Knights? If I have knights, I am certainly not building the CI!
CI comes with CoL!
Knights are 2 generations... beelined... from CoL!
That is quite a difference in strategy in most of my games.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 12:20 AM   #49
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The amount of power it takes to dissuade AIs from attacking you is unrealistically high in just about any game you're not running away with. I believe it takes double the power of the nastiest warmongers in the game to deter them, and with a military that big, you should have started attacking and steamrolling them a long time ago.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 02:37 AM   #50
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I can't believe anyone would vote the Internet, it's pulled me out of the fire in a few games. I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can also utilize it with espionage. Get a good amount of EPs on the tech leaders to the point that you can see their research, intentionally go for techs they don't have and aren't researching, and then get a good 5+ techs from the Internet. A ton of these are situational; Eiffel Tower and the "Hit _____"-giving wonders are great for cultural victories, Versailles if you're playing an Earth (or other huge) map. I'd have to say Chichen Itza is the worst; you rarely lose enough cities that it would've made a big difference.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 03:02 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Zechnophobe View Post
Cristo Redento. You get it so late in the game, and if you are spiritual does almost NOTHING for you. If you aren't spiritual, but have a Golden Age end game, same thing.

If you aren't spiritual, and don't have a golden age end game... then it let's you change civics... which is not really common thing to do at the point in the game you get the dang thing.
The Cristo is a great wonder. You may not like changing civics, but you should. It does depend on how long the game is likely to be, but if you have a strong Ironworks city then it only takes about six turns to build and its definitely worth it. By this stage you will probably have unlocked all the civics, and with the Cristo you can use them all.

The Space Elevator is strictly for building when you have a couple of surplus engineers (quite common at this time in the game, I seem to pop them everywhere at the end of a space race) and you can shave one turn off your launch time by rushing it. If you can do it, why not? By the end of the game you wiill have finished the tech tree anyway and will be well into the Future Techs.

For me the worst is either the Hagia Sophia (shame it's so bad in-game, it's one of my favourites in real life) or the Temple of Artemis. Sure, the ToA is nice for GPP, but you need to have a lot of leisure time to be building this at that point of the game. There are other much better wonders I'd rather be chasing.

And I never, ever build the Colossus. I probably should occasionally.

Chichen Itza obviously requires no comment, but I have built it for the sake of GPP if I was having a very easy game and one of my cities was at a loose end for something to build.

Last edited by NihilZero; Jul 25, 2010 at 12:44 AM.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 03:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by kochman View Post
Shwedagon Paya

Surprised I was the first.
I NEVER build this... ever.
Seriously? At the very least, early Free Religion can be a very handy boost if you lack religion. Also, you can ignore putting beakers down the Theology path.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 04:14 AM   #53
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Chicken Pizza gives Great Prophet points not Great Engineer points.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:01 AM   #54
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No, but I do wonder why they attached SE to robotics in BTS, because it doesn't make sense and unless Obs can give us some useful math to show us that we're wrong, it made it an almost guaranteed bad play when before it was viable. In real life, the #1 greatest problem with a space elevator is that we can't make anything that can handle the tensile stress IIRC. Not sure how robotics would assist that outside of some very vague half-@#$ hand-waves. If a game is going to abandon realism, it should only do it because doing so adds balance or fun/depth! In this game, SE in BTS is sort of like global warming - questionable from gameplay AND realism standpoints. Ouch.
Well basically what I'm trying to say is that Next War kinda looks more realistic to me when it comes to space victory and all, which is weird.

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Seriously? At the very least, early Free Religion can be a very handy boost if you lack religion. Also, you can ignore putting beakers down the Theology path.
Indeed, SP had become a must have for me lately as I try to get free religion as fast as I can, so that I won't get involved in those pathetic religious squabbles (yeah like that helps).

I have a question about the Internet. Will you get all the techs AI know? Like in my recent game I have Saladdin with fission, numerous AI with communism and some other AI's with medicine. Will I get them all?
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:07 AM   #55
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As long as a tech is known by 2 AIs you will get it.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:21 AM   #56
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As long as a tech is known by 2 AIs you will get it.
So if it's known only by one AI I won't get it? Great...
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:21 AM   #57
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For the top neighbors, maybe, but your immediate neighbors?
If you can get 100-200% of their power and never get into any war with anybody, ever, sure.

Of course AP or an event could still get you into war, where everyone considering you adds your opponent power to their own for the war check.

It's just not a realistic approach on emp+ unless you are already running away.

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The Space Elevator is strictly for building when you have a couple of surplus engineers (quite common at this time in the game, I seem to pop them everywhere at the end of a space race) and you can shave one turn off your launch time by rushing it. If you can do it, why not? By the end of the game you wiill have finished the tech tree anyway and will be well into the Future Techs.
This is only true if you ALSO get robotics in trade.

I ran a test game...My best city had a mere 58 base hammers. Another had ~40. A bunch of them had 30 ish (it's not hard to run 10 emancipation workshops or so in state property).

After running straight space techs, upon finishing the last technology (ecology), it took 9 turns to finish the ship entirely. At 2000 beakers/turn (very reasonable on a standard map), I could have teched robotics in ~5-6 turns (nobody had it). There is no way in hell space elevator drops the last part from 9 turns to 4 turns. So even in this very lame production-starved empire (at least in terms of its top cities), the mere act of teching robotics would put me behind even if the space elevator were INSTANT and cost ZERO hammers. Even if I received the space elevator bonus simply by receiving robotics, it STILL would slow the space race down, not help by a turn. That's without GPP opportunity cost (why not try to spread out types and GA?) or even super hammer cities that would tip the comparison further.

Space elevator's place in the tech tree in BTS KILLS it.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:22 AM   #58
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You will when another AI gets the tech. The internet keeps working after you build it.
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:25 AM   #59
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Tough pick between CI and SE, but I voted SE.

I wonder where CI would stand if it gave you +25% defense that can't be bombarded away... (or equivalently, +25% city defense to all units that get defensive bonuses)
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Old Jul 24, 2010, 05:49 AM   #60
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Ummm... are you kidding with that question? A good defense (read power score) stops the AI from DoWing ALL THE TIME.

Knights? If I have knights, I am certainly not building the CI!
CI comes with CoL!
Knights are 2 generations... beelined... from CoL!
That is quite a difference in strategy in most of my games.
Power score? You might want to check the values in the demographics article in the war academy.

CI has a value of 8000, a single axeman has 6000....
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