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Old Jul 26, 2010, 09:55 PM   #21
Thyrwyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahkuhnder View Post
....What reason would Steam be required to always run while Civ5 is being played other than if Steam is scanning the game for content?...
The Steamworks API is much more than a DRM system - as Greg indicates elsewhere in this thread, many of Civ V's community features are built using Steamworks, which is why Steam is required to be running - it is essentially part of the game.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sahkuhnder View Post
We are told how great Civ5 will be for mod creation and that is wonderful news, but if the Steam DRM won't allow us to play the mods we made then that is a problem.
As said in my post that you quoted, mods are not handled by Steam in any way.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:12 PM   #23
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Thank you for the FAQ Greg.
I'm glad to see lots of questions have now been answered.

If my understanding is correct, it looks like using online mode (which is obviously going to be what most people do most of the time since it will be essential for community features including the mod hub) equates to forced game updates. I find this a bit troubling but I can understand there would be reasons for it. As a modder it concerns me and I'll most likely hold off on making any mods that reach deep into the code until I see how the patching process goes and how the more experienced modders handle it. High level mods might be fairly safe from the patches though, by the sounds of things.

EDIT... And if I may clarify one thing. You mentioned that you can make separate backups of different versions (or perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth? oops), but you also said that re-installing an older version would still require a validation. Is it correct to assume that if you attempted to restore (or re-install) the game from a backup which was an older version, upon validation it would detect a new version and automatically update the game? If that's the case, I wouldn't see any reason in bothering to keep backups of older versions - they would be useless essentially.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thyrwyn View Post
The Steamworks API is much more than a DRM system - as Greg indicates elsewhere in this thread, many of Civ V's community features are built using Steamworks, which is why Steam is required to be running - it is essentially part of the game.
Steam is other things as well, but Steam is also the DRM system. Bello is asking if the Steam DRM system will be set to intervene and prohibit if a mod uses any part of DLC content. Civ4 allowed the modification of existing content so it is a reasonable question to ask if Civ5 will be the same or if the always-on Steam DRM system will impose a new level of restrictions.

And there is no reason that we are forced to have Steam run in offline mode except for DRM purposes.


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Originally Posted by Souron View Post
Given the answers to questions 5 and 11, I don't see how you can conclude that steam will scan game content. The reason for steam to run in the background is to track usage time, and to make the "steam overlay" work.
Do you know that the Steam DRM system won't scan game content in order to enforce DRM restrictions? That is the question Bello is asking.

In offline mode there is no need to force Steam to run just so we can have the "Steam overlay" or whatever. They could easily have allowed the game to be played in offline mode without Steam being forced to be concurrently running. Steam is the DRM, that's why it's running. As the DRM, Bello is asking what the Steam DRM rules are regarding mods making use of DLC and if the new always-on Steam DRM will impose new restrictions that were not on Civ4 mods.


EDIT- Edited for clarity.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by PieceOfMind View Post
EDIT... And if I may clarify one thing. You mentioned that you can make separate backups of different versions (or perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth? oops), but you also said that re-installing an older version would still require a validation. Is it correct to assume that if you attempted to restore (or re-install) the game from a backup which was an older version, upon validation it would detect a new version and automatically update the game? If that's the case, I wouldn't see any reason in bothering to keep backups of older versions - they would be useless essentially.
I don't think I've ever said that. Your assumption is correct, however, that if you restored from a backup, Steam would require the game to be patched to the latest version after the restore.

The reason people backup the game files to an archive is so that they can reinstall the game (after an OS reinstall, or when moving to a new computer, or what have you) without having to download the whole thing again.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
As said in my post that you quoted, mods are not handled by Steam in any way.
If mods are not handled by Steam in any way then can you please just answer Bello's question and confirm that the Steam DRM will not restrict "mods making use of DLC content"?

Just a simple yes or no would be fine. I also would like to know if we will be allowed to mod existing content like in Civ4 or if there are new Steam DRM imposed restrictions.


EDIT- Edited for clarity.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sahkuhnder View Post
Then can you please just answer Bello's question and confirm that the Steam DRM will not restrict "mods making use of DLC content"?
I don't have any information on how mods will or will not interact with DLC at this time. We'll be discussing mods in detail in the coming months, and at that time I'd be happy to answer all the questions I can manage about the modding system.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:35 PM   #28
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One question for the FAQ: Under what conditions are the policies outlined here subject to change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahkuhnder View Post
Do you know it won't scan game content to enforce DRM restrictions? That is the question Bello is asking.

In offline mode there is no need to force Steam to run just so we can have the "Steam overlay" or whatever. They could easily have allowed the game to be played in offline mode without Steam being forced to be concurrently running. Steam is the DRM, that's why it's running. As the DRM, Bello is asking what the Steam DRM rules are regarding mods making use of DLC and if the new always-on Steam DRM will impose new restrictions that were not on Civ4 mods.
Yes, between the lack of VAC and the info on what data steam collects, I don't see how it could possibly enforce further DRM restrictions.

Yes, it might be possible to create a decoupled version of civ V, but then the authentication requirement will not work, and in general there would be no benefit to Civ V to do so. It would involve writing new code for some menus handled by steam. It would attract the people who object to steam's TOS, but that's the only benefit.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 12:50 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
The Official Civ5 Steamworks FAQ has been posted over on the 2K Forums:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/sho...015#post944015

And it's up before the end of July, just like I originally estimated!

I have reproduced it in full here, as a courtesy to you:
Spoiler:
Q. Can I play Civilization V while not connected to the Internet?
A. Yes. After you have activated your installation by launching the game once while connected to the Internet, you may restart Steam in “offline mode.” This will allow you to have access to Civilization V even while not connected to the Internet. Details on how to use offline mode are available on this Steam Support page: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...3160-AGCB-2555


Q. Will I need to run Steam every time I want to play Civilization V?
A. Steam will need to run when you play Civilization V, but an Internet connection is not required after the initial installation.


Q. How big will the Civilization V download be?
A. It’s impossible for us to know for sure until the game is 100% finalized, but it will be in the same ballpark as many other Steam games. We will include this detail in our minimum specs when they are announced.


Q. Will it be possible to “preload” Civilization V on Steam before the release date, so we can start playing it the moment it unlocks?
A. Unfortunately it is too early for us to tell if this will be possible, but it’s definitely something we would like to do. I’ll let you guys know as soon as we know for sure.


Q. Will Civilization V use the Valve Anti-Cheat (VAC) system?
A. No, we are not using VAC. This means that nothing you do in Civilization V would cause you to become VAC-banned, nor will a VAC-ban cause you to be unable to play Civilization V multiplayer.


Q. When using offline mode, will I need to periodically reconnect to the Internet?
A. No. Once you switch to offline mode you can stay in that mode forever. The one exception is that if you significantly change your computer’s hardware, you will need to switch to online mode and launch the game one time to reactivate the game. There is, unfortunately, no way for software to tell the difference between a change in hardware and a move to a completely new computer, which is why this happens.


Q. If I use a personal firewall to block all network traffic to and from the Steam client, will Civilization V still function?
A. If you have already configured Steam to run in offline mode, then yes. It would cause Steam to function as if you had no Internet connection at all, which works fine once you are in offline mode.


Q. Will it be possible to get any required updates and patches on another computer to transfer via thumbdrive, or will they be only accessible via the computer the game is installed on?
A. Patches will only be available to download via Steam. However, Steam does provide a method for backing up a game installation to restore on the same or different computer. You could use this feature to download a new version of Civilization V on a friend’s faster Internet connection and then transfer it to your computer via a thumb drive. After restoring the backup, you will need to connect to the Internet once to validate the new version.
Details of how to use this feature are on the Steam Support page: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...8794-YPHV-2033


Q. Will it be possible to play multiplayer via LAN when running Steam in offline mode?
A. Yes, LAN play will function when in offline mode.


Q. Will things like the steam community be fully integrated into the game's interface or will you be relying on the overlay to provide functionality like chat and friends lists?
A. The in-game browser, friend list, friend invites, and some other features are embedded within the Steam overlay. However, the mod library and in-game chat during multiplayer matches are integrated directly in to the game.


Q. What personally identifiable information does Valve collect with Steam?
A. The only information players are required to provide is a valid email address and a password, and to verify they are older than 13 years of age. All other information at registration time is optional. Valve does track the time spent playing a game, per account, but does not collect information about what other processes are running concurrently on the computer. A player’s profile can be set to hidden, which prevents other people from seeing that player’s playtime statistics. These statistics are also recorded while in offline mode, and are transmitted the next time you connect in online mode. Crash logs do sometimes collect extra information such as what processes were running at the time of the crash, and these logs contain your Steam ID for tech support to use.


Q. If I have a game of Civilization V running on my desktop at home (in online mode) and I log onto Steam on my laptop elsewhere, what happens?
A. Your Steam account at home would become disconnected. Your home machine will not be able to access any online or community features until you reconnect to Steam.


Q. If I install a mod from a third party website, will Steam need to “validate” the mod in any way?
A. No. Mods will not be validated by Steam, and you will not need to switch steam to online mode in order to play a new mod.


Q. When Steam auto-patches Civilization V, will mods cease to function until they are updated for the new patch?
A. We do not review mods so we can’t speak to the effect patches may have on every mod’s functionality. At the same time, ensuring that our platform remains stable and backward-compatible is a priority. As always, as I get more info, I’ll update you.


Q. How will Steam know that I bought a boxed copy of the game?
A. The box will contain a product code that you use to register your purchase to your Steam account. The box will also contain a disc that contains the data files for the entire game. When you install from this disc, it will install Steam if necessary and then place all of the game files on to your hard drive, negating the need to download the game from the Internet.


Q. Should I be concerned about where I buy the game from, when it comes to compatibility with future expansions or content?
A. One of the advantages of using Steamworks is that no matter where you buy the game from, you can be sure that it’ll be compatible with any future content released.


Q. Is there a limit to the number of times/computers you can install Civilization V?
A. There is no limit to the number of times and different computers on which you can install Civilization V.


Q. Is it possible to stop Steam from automatically patching Civilization V?
A. The only way to ensure your game is not updated is to play in offline mode. If you are in online mode your game will be automatically updated.


Q. Will it be possible to make a copy of the installation directory for the purposes of having multiple versions of Civilization V available to play?
A. No, this will not be possible.


Q. What is the possibility of a version of Civilization V being released that does not contain Steamworks integration?
A. Much of Civilization V’s framework is built around Steamworks. There are no current plans to ever release a version without that integration.


Q. What happens if my Steam account is hacked or stolen? Would this enable someone to steal the game from me completely electronically? How would I prove it was stolen?
A. Valve has a support page detailing how to recover a stolen/hijacked Steam account. You will need to provide some sort of proof of ownership of the account. The details can be found at this support page: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...2347-QDFN-4366 – note that if Civilization V is the only game you have registered to your Steam account and you bought a boxed copy, you should be sure to save the original product key to use as proof of ownership.


Q. Considering the fact that Steam is now available for Mac and many games are being offered as SteamPlay, will Civilization V be coming to the Mac?
A. All Civilization titles have had a Mac version in the past, but we unfortunately have nothing to currently announce for Civ V. Stay tuned in the future!


Q. How will I unlock the “Cradle of Civilization” Map Pack?
A. The map pack will be automatically downloaded and installed through Steam’s DLC interface.


Q. How do I view all registered extras (like map packs) associated with my Steam account?
A. Here is a Steam Support page which details how to view all extras associated with a game: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...2668-CFOM-1881


Q. Do customers need to download or install any other 3rd party program besides Steam to authenticate or install or play Civilization V?
A. The game will detect and install the required version of DirectX when you launch it for the first time.
So we can expect an announcement on the other fan sites soon?
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 03:09 AM   #30
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But, since Steam provides functionality other than DRM, it stays on to support that functionality.
I don't know if you took the time to read the whole discussion but that's not the main topic of contention. I understand that they have chosen to have Steam be required to be running at all times while Civ5 is being played. The topic is the forced always-on nature of the Steam DRM and what that DRM does after the initial authentication check is completed, i.e., what that forced always-on activity includes in the way of any scanning of mods for existing game or DLC content. If mods are found to be using existing content will we be allowed to use those mods like we could in Civ4 or will the Steam DRM add a restriction to prohibit us from playing Civ5 in the same way we could in previous Civ versions.


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The Steamworks API says this. Greg has said this. Greg has also said that Steam has nothing to do with mods.
I ask you to provide the links to back up your claims.

I just asked Greg if the Steam DRM scanned mods for DLC content and he said he didn't know, "I don't have any information on how mods will or will not interact with DLC at this time".

Steam DRM does have to do it's job as a DRM system and part of that job is to protect the paid DLC mod content. If Steam didn't interact with DLC then it would be a dismal failure as one person could purchase a DLC mod and give it away to everyone else. What prevents this from happening? Steam - by Steam interacting with the DLC mod and preventing unauthorized use of said DLC mod.

So yes, Steam, through the Steam DRM program, has something to do with mods.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 03:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
That will stop Steam from keeping the game up to date in the background. Once you try to launch the game, however, Steam will update your game if it's not up to date, not matter what that option is set to.
This is completely incorrect. I can guarantee 100% that if that option is set to "do not update", then it will not update, regardless if you're online or not.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 03:33 AM   #32
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Greg, not going to bother making a new topic on this, and I hope you read this thread:

I've had a crazy half-baked idea:

Would it be possible for you (or Firaxis) to provide a second copy of the game installed in the /steamapps/common (can't remember the exact steam directory at this time) directory of a set previous version that was not subjected to auto-updating until an agreed/forwarned time.

For example the games library would list something like this:

Other Games
Civ 5
Civ 5 fixed version 1.0
Other Games

With the directories being:

/steamapps/common/Civ5
/steamapps/common/Civ5fv

Then as there are two versions one could be updated via steam's auto-patching constantly (Civ 5), and the other could be left as a base version until a pre-determined time or limit has been reached. For example Civ 5 reaches 1.2 therefore fixed version is updated to 1.1 (through steam), this example is assuming the patching goes something like 1.0 - 1.024 - 1.036, etc.

I understand this creates duplicity in terms of installs however Its a simple copy and paste of the Civ5 directory contents in the first instance. No different IMO to a back-up copy or the process I went through everytime a patch was released (copying the whole directory before patching). As the game is linked to steam only one copy could be run at a given time.

This would allow a stable platform for mods to be played on (civ5 fixed version) and the mod developers access to the latest version (Civ 5) for mod compatibility testing. If a patch breaks a mod hopefully the mods creator would find out first and it wouldn't need to be updated until the fixed version update is released. Provided people use the mod on fixed version.

Apologies for wall of text but i think this may be a good way around (not solution) to some peoples concerns.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 03:42 AM   #33
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If I change to a new hard disk, or I change from Windows XP to Windows 7, or if I need to format
my hard disk:

Do I keep my Steam account, can I play the game?

My thanks in advance.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 04:34 AM   #34
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Q. If I have a game of Civilization V running on my desktop at home (in online mode) and I log onto Steam on my laptop elsewhere, what happens?
A. Your Steam account at home would become disconnected. Your home machine will not be able to access any online or community features until you reconnect to Steam.
I asked this question originally, and it doesn't quite answer the question I was trying to ask (my apologies for not making it clear enough originally).

I understand that Steam will be logged out on the home machine. My question is, what happens to Civilization 5? Does it continue to run, or does it shut down (after saving, hopefully) along with Steam logging out?
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 04:47 AM   #35
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I asked this question originally, and it doesn't quite answer the question I was trying to ask (my apologies for not making it clear enough originally).

I understand that Steam will be logged out on the home machine. My question is, what happens to Civilization 5? Does it continue to run, or does it shut down (after saving, hopefully) along with Steam logging out?
This is quite a valid question - think about family accounts, where one member is playing Civ5, while another member in the next room would try to launch another game from that same account.

And as far as I understand it, the core of the question is whether Steam will provide a functionality to safely shut down the game (especially Civ5) being run on the first login?
This becomes even more a concern since Steam might be launched as soon as Windows is started on the second computer.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 04:50 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by isndl View Post
I asked this question originally, and it doesn't quite answer the question I was trying to ask (my apologies for not making it clear enough originally).

I understand that Steam will be logged out on the home machine. My question is, what happens to Civilization 5? Does it continue to run, or does it shut down (after saving, hopefully) along with Steam logging out?
Yes, this was very similar to my original question. My wife and I often play Civ IV together on our LAN at home. Are we going to need two Steam accounts for this to work? And, if so, does that mean that we need to purchase two copies of Civ V? That would be quite unfortunate...

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Old Jul 27, 2010, 05:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by BobTheRabbit View Post
Yes, this was very similar to my original question. My wife and I often play Civ IV together on our LAN at home. Are we going to need two Steam accounts for this to work? And, if so, does that mean that we need to purchase two copies of Civ V? That would be quite unfortunate...

Da Rabbit
If you are in offline mode, technically there is nothing preventing you from using the same account on 2 machines at the same time, but keep in mind that it's against the eula.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 08:37 AM   #38
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Moderator Action: To keep this thread slim and to not create another steam discussion/rant here, the ongoing discussion and everything which is not at minimum an answer to a secondary FAQ related question has been moved to this thread.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 10:16 AM   #39
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Sahkuhnder, I think your question is very clearly answered by this entry in the FAQ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
Q. If I install a mod from a third party website, will Steam need to “validate” the mod in any way?
A. No. Mods will not be validated by Steam, and you will not need to switch steam to online mode in order to play a new mod.
Plain and simple: Steam will not validate mods.

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Originally Posted by fed1943 View Post
If I change to a new hard disk, or I change from Windows XP to Windows 7, or if I need to format my hard disk:

Do I keep my Steam account, can I play the game?
You keep your Steam account forever. As stated by the FAQ, you can install/reinstall Steam on an unlimited number of computers and unlimited number of times. After reinstalling your operating system you will either redownload the game via Steam, or restore from a Steam-created backup. The backup simply prevents you from having to download the whole thing again; you don't need to make one to ensure access to your game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isndl View Post
I understand that Steam will be logged out on the home machine. My question is, what happens to Civilization 5? Does it continue to run, or does it shut down (after saving, hopefully) along with Steam logging out?
You would be unable to access the online and community features on your home machine. The game will not automatically quit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheRabbit View Post
Yes, this was very similar to my original question. My wife and I often play Civ IV together on our LAN at home. Are we going to need two Steam accounts for this to work? And, if so, does that mean that we need to purchase two copies of Civ V? That would be quite unfortunate...

Da Rabbit
In order for two people to play Civilization V simultaneously, you will need two copies of the game.
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Old Jul 27, 2010, 12:15 PM   #40
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Q. How will Steam know that I bought a boxed copy of the game?
A. The box will contain a product code that you use to register your purchase to your Steam account. The box will also contain a disc that contains the data files for the entire game. When you install from this disc, it will install Steam if necessary and then place all of the game files on to your hard drive, negating the need to download the game from the Internet.
So Steam gets installed from a boxed copy. Nice service for those who don't have it installed yet.
A question on that: when steam is installed from a boxed copy, will it invite the installer to create a Steam user account in order to activate the game? I mean somewhere during the installation process of the game. I'm asking because I'd like to know how easy/hard it will be to activate my game.
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