[BTS] NC LVI: Willem of the Netherlands

[i_imperator]

Has anybody thought about moving the warrior 1W and then settling 1S:

Spoiler:

You'll get two more calender resources in your BFC if you do.

[Amao]

Originally Posted by stevoh

Has anybody thought about moving the warrior 1W and then settling 1S:

Spoiler:

You'll get two more calender resources in your BFC if you do.

You lose fresh water in the process. The capital needs more lands to make a super bureau science one. However, it's kind of OK on this map. but still health is the limit when you have Monarch.

[i_imperator]

And you loose access to the UB aslo, Fair enough.

[dalamb]

Prince, Epic, to 2350 BC with 2 possible dotmaps, on which I'd appreciate comments:

Spoiler:

Settled in place for the fresh water, but looking forward to someone reporting on 1SW for a GP farm. Knowing Ghengis was to the north, I explored south and west looking for huts, and found 3 of them. For some reason Ghengis' scout turned back when he got near my borders, even though there was a clear path along my west coast at that point; might he have feared being cut off?

The world as I know it:


Tech path mining > BW > wheel > pottery > sail > myst > meditation > priesthood (6 turns to go) aiming for oracle'ing MC -- but got lucky with a hut that gave me Mysticism. I'm not sure I can get both GLH and Oracle, but figure GLH is more important.

Built workboat > worker > warrior; worker first farmed the corn then chopped a 2nd worker (my usual mistake being not enough workers), then the two chopped a settler who is now ready to whip. I think I need a production city near the copper first, so am waffling between two choices:

• The first puts the city 1SW of the copper and gives it the sheep, but pushes the city west of the capital southwards into the tundra.
  
• The second puts it on a river, crowding the northern red city somewhat but allows the southern city to move north 1 tile (giving it the sheep and removing some tundra tiles from its BFC).
  
• In either case I think Red is third if Ghengis doesn't take it.

Question re GLH for those who've explored the whole initial land mass:

Spoiler:

With only one AI on the same continent, and that AI likely to be conquered, is it really a win to go for the GLH? I'd just be trading with myself until Astronomy, and suspect for a FIN leader that the space between Astronomy and Economics isn't that long -- especially considering the period when AIs have Banking and some decide to go for Mercantilism.

Edit: I notice I spent twice as long writing this up as I did playing!

[whats a navy]

@Dalamb

Spoiler:

In a recent game of mine I built GLH in isolation and after meeting the AI my science tripled. It is very powerful if you delay corporation and convince the AI to stay in free market rather than in Mercantilism.

[yanner39]

Originally Posted by whats a navy

@Dalamb

Spoiler:

In a recent game of mine I built GLH in isolation and after meeting the AI my science tripled. It is very powerful if you delay corporation and convince the AI to stay in free market rather than in Mercantilism.

This is a great point. I've recently discovered the power of this wonder and I agree. Getting Astronomy ASAP would probaby be a good idea.

[yanner39]

Originally Posted by Amao

Monarch/Normal

Played to 325BC, 102 Turns

Spoiler:

Settled in place, start a worker and beelined for BW. Warrior going south clockwise, then ventured into the snaky tundra to the west which turned out to be a dead end. Got 2 huts before Khan's scout stepped on them, a map and a little cash.

Settled SW of copper and researched to AH to work on the sheep first, then Pottery, then Sailing, then Writting, and Masonry by 1840BC. Then capital started to build the GLH by chopping down all trees left in the culture border, while the other city get another settler to the north for the Fish/Clam instead of the Ivory. Khan settled by the Ivory right after I settled.

Got the GLH by 1240BC, and set up the Marble just a couple of turns later so the Orcale was also in hand by 975BC, picked Monarchy for happiness cap and also because i was right about the researched CoL as well. Then I started the long and painful route to CS and got it at 350BC and switched over the Bureau right away.

After I got the GLH, I immediately started to settle the eastern land which turned out to be a tiny island. But it's an island anyway, I sent 2 settlers there. And also just pumped another one to get the cow right under Khan's city.

So, here I am just got Bureau, and academy in the capital but not much of the cottages yet. I'll need to improve my health cap, so compass is nice. However, Khan is get delicious to be taken. So, I decided to nap the construction first and cat/axe him before I researched south for compass. There isn't much land for expansion anyway. BTW, I have fully explored the water. I saw some greenish off the tip of our NE's continent, something like Monty or Saladin. But won't know until I settle a city there or after I got optics. So, consume Khan's land to add more to eco should be a good way to go.

I'm also torn between the ideas on how to settle the greenland faraway to the west off the tundra. If i settle one city there, the best choice is not to the the fish but to cottage up. or, I got 3 cities there? or not at all? eh....

Spoiler:

Did you build the GLH and the Orable in your capital? If so, did you use the copper city to pump out your workers and settlers?

Just curious as to what your initial build orders were. Did you do alot of whipping?

[v8_mark]

Immortal/Normal 1AD:

Spoiler:

This game is hilarious. It's the first immortal game I've ever played that is actually over by 1AD. I'm first in all meaningful demographic categories, Mongolia is four crap, resourceless cities that will be ripe for the picking when I finally get round to it, and I'm about to found my tenth (tenth!!!! On Immortal! At 1AD!) city.

Stuff I did well:

• Blocked Mongolia with a brave city way up north, using creative to take the ivory tile from Turfan.
• Placed said city 1E of where my instincts screamed at me that it should go, to get the ivory and a couple of hills into its radius. Subsequently, it built the Oracle, and caused Turfan, the neighbouring Mongolian city, to culture-flip. If it had gone 1W, it could have got the fish, but wouldn't have anything like the production it has now, and it certainly wouldn't have been able to flip Turfan.
• Built the Great Lighthouse. I thought I might be too late at 825BC, but it seems there are no hammers on this map...

Stuff I did badly:

• Decided to play immortal rather than deity

[Amao]

Originally Posted by yanner39

Spoiler:

Did you build the GLH and the Orable in your capital? If so, did you use the copper city to pump out your workers and settlers?

Just curious as to what your initial build orders were. Did you do alot of whipping?

@yanner

Spoiler:

GLH and Oracle were built in the capital. And for the copper city, yes and no. I had 4 workers working for the initial 2 cities. When I started building GLH, i was actually more worried about Khan might go into war mode. So i get an axe or 2 out before building a settler to the north to grab the Marble.

To start, I mostly building a worker, then let the capital grow by building warrior and settler/worker depending on the availability of BW and the landing grabbing pressure.

For a hammer heavy cities like my initial cities, slavery doesn't outperform production wise vs max out your pop limit, not to mention the cash losses. I never switched into slavery in this game. Directly switched into HR/CS after Oracle is built and CoL is researched.

a few more screenshots from the autosaves and hope they can explain better than my words.

Spoiler:

Workers were just finishing chopping down the trees, now start mining.

Now the copper city has reached happy limit, about right time to start a settler.

GLH in, trees out.

Working on Oracle, note the Marble is ready.

This is one of my typical setup, too. A early GP farm to make sure the first GP is a GS. So GLH, Oracle had no pollution to it.

[Amao]

@v8: From all the reports I have read, imm and diety are two different games. some said it's like from noble to imm. I hope some experts could play on the deity and show us the diff. TMIT?

[obsolete]

I played this one earlier today, and had to stop for a while. I had a bit of bad luck and terrible timing with wars, causing me to lose 2 cities including my capital again. But looks like I'm recovering nicely. Hopefully I'll have it done before morning :P

[vranasm]

@amao

Spoiler:

I have to say your 325BC is really impressive... i tried it emulate with at least 4 tries...
in 3 of them KK settled his 3rd city on the hill locking out your 4th city you settled. I consider it lucky that he settled 1E of ivory in your game because in my tries i had to activelly lock both northern cities before he settles his 3rd city

Will try today again probably ;-) I hope i will meet your timeline because it's really impressive.

but anyway respect for what you achieved!

[obsolete]

Immortal --> Start to Finish

Spoiler:

I'm not too much a fan of this leader, also I wasn't sure how easy it was to remove random events from WB saves so I gave Immortal a shot.

Begining went as expected, stupid neighbour DoWs on me despite I tried to get him on good terms. Later on when I went on the offensive I had really terrible luck. Lost a city to some bad RNG stuff, and then I lost another ( my capital ) to worst timing ever of a backstab from Ragnar. My units were all out of range, and I couldn't even do any civic switches.

Was able to re-gain the initiative and wiped out the Brown guy completely while liberating my capital from Raggy. Next I went on offensive to Shaka who seemed quite large at the time.

After that I went after Raggy who was getting too powerful and had vassaled Wang. Cleared the both of them right off the continent. Unfortunately despite constantly going to war and taking city after city that damn Raggy wouldn't capitulate. I eventually won diplo without him as a vassal, though this game seems to have taken too long. I guess I got too greedy trying to take everything instead of vassaling Pacal earlier, etc.

[drlake]

I may get started on this later today. I've wanted to run through a Willem game for a while, should be fun.

[drlake]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

In place or SE. Either way, worker first.

I'm thinking settle 1SE. 1 extra hammer and 1 extra coin for the capital, gets another food resource, and no need to build the Winery for the happiness once I get to Monarchy.

[yanner39]

Originally Posted by Amao

@yanner

Spoiler:

GLH and Oracle were built in the capital. And for the copper city, yes and no. I had 4 workers working for the initial 2 cities. When I started building GLH, i was actually more worried about Khan might go into war mode. So i get an axe or 2 out before building a settler to the north to grab the Marble.

To start, I mostly building a worker, then let the capital grow by building warrior and settler/worker depending on the availability of BW and the landing grabbing pressure.

For a hammer heavy cities like my initial cities, slavery doesn't outperform production wise vs max out your pop limit, not to mention the cash losses. I never switched into slavery in this game. Directly switched into HR/CS after Oracle is built and CoL is researched.

a few more screenshots from the autosaves and hope they can explain better than my words.

Spoiler:

Workers were just finishing chopping down the trees, now start mining.

Now the copper city has reached happy limit, about right time to start a settler.

GLH in, trees out.

Working on Oracle, note the Marble is ready.

This is one of my typical setup, too. A early GP farm to make sure the first GP is a GS. So GLH, Oracle had no pollution to it.

Spoiler:

Thanks for doing this Amao. When I tried the start, I tried to hook up the Marble but I settled The Hague a little more south to also grab the Marble but be less is Khan's face.

I never think of going for the Oracle, even if I have marble. When I do have marble, I go down the Aesthetic line to get the GLibrary (I actually never go down the Priesthood line - never is bad in CIV4).

So you grab CoL before Alphabet and Currency? Also, it was pretty smart to run Scientists (in Caste) in The Hague when the GLH was built in the Capital. In a recent game, when I built the GLH, I generated a Great Merchant first in my capital even by running Scientists, so it took me a while to get my Academy.

Never running slavery is also a different idea for me. Whippig is a weak aspect of my game so I should just switch to caste always

One last thing: If there was no Marble, would you have still gone for the Oracle? For me, I value some Wonders (like the GLib) so much that I save trees just for them. I never realized until this thread oh getting that early free expensive tech could be so valuable.

[huerfanista]

Monarch/normal, 1866AD domination:

Spoiler:

Settled in-place, started a worker while teching mining> BW> wheel. I settled the first city 2N of the marble, right up against the mongolian border. I gave up the fish in order to completely block Khan off. 2nd city grabbed the copper/fish/sheep spot, and the 3rd city was settled on top of the stone out on the western peninsula. After grabbing sailing/masonry to connect the stone, I went up the religious line to PH and grabbed MC with the oracle (built in the city next to Khan to boost culture there). I built the GLH, mids, and colossus in Amsterdam, and generally went on a wonderspamming spree. Except for the 2 early stone wonders (henge and GW), I think I got them all. I founded confucianism in the copper city with CoL and Khan converted. I filled out the rest of the non-tundra land when I was able to take time off from wonders in my cities. Amsterdam got the GLib, SP, UoS. The border city got ToA, SoZ, MoM. Copper city got the others (Sistine, Chicken Pizza, ND, AP). I used a GP to bulb theo, founding christianity in the copper city (double holy), and built both shrines there. After edu I took a detour to DR to nab the SM (founded islam). I took astro with lib (already had the circumnavigation bonus), then it was up to rifling/MilTrad/steel. I took Khan out with cavalry/cannon. Monty was my first overseas victim - capped after I took his capital and 1 other city. Wang and his vassal Ragnar were next - I took all of Wang's continent with cavalry/fighters and then vassaled Ragnar. Mehmed was killed off next, and I'd just taken 2 of Shaka's cities when borders popped in former ottoman lands and I went over the dom limit. At the end I was building the MM wonders while teching industrialism, and only Shaka had anything more than muskets (he was the only AI to make it to MilSci).

[TheMeInTeam]

IMM/Normal (Modded in Sid instead of Willem, which I will do from now on if I play these possibly)

1884 UN

Spoiler:

Settled in place. With no traits no need for cottage spam here.

Picked up SH, Gwall, oracle, colossus, great library, parthenon, zeus, temple of artemis, paya, and even late mids in a 2nd city. I had 3 cities (one with marble) and then genghis declared on me.

He had no metal though, just noobphants so I just killed him with maces/cats.

I met the rest of the world and they went confucian butt monkeys. It spread to my territory and I converted. I just beelined mass media...wang beat me there, but I beat him to UN and cristo.

After some flip flopping of opponents, it was me vs shaka. On the first vote, I lost at a net diplo of +10 with sully to shaka's "+6 friendly), so I didn't get enough votes. The 2nd time, I forced shaka into FR and that made things less happy between those two, easy UN.

I'd almost caught up to wang in tech, and was ahead of everyone else despite being very slow at first. So much wonder denial + arch nerfs the AI into oblivion even if you play w/o traits.

[Crow, of Earth]

Hi!

I'd like to try this one on Prince, but before I start playing, I want to ask: is it worth cottage spamming on an archipelago map, even with a Financial leader? Or should I rather try to get an early Colossus and an earlier GLH and rely on specialists for the rest?

Or should I maybe cottage the capital for the Bureau civic and use specialists otherwise?

[vranasm]

Originally Posted by Crow, of Earth

Hi!

I'd like to try this one on Prince, but before I start playing, I want to ask: is it worth cottage spamming on an archipelago map, even with a Financial leader? Or should I rather try to get an early Colossus and an earlier GLH and rely on specialists for the rest?

Or should I maybe cottage the capital for the Bureau civic and use specialists otherwise?

you should check the map yourself... the deciding factor is terrain...

Spoiler:

I think there are some good spots for cottages, but early GLH is key I would say.