Hannibal WTH!

I have come to the anwser, The AI are complete f***ing r*tards...
Heres what lead me to this:

(frist a note because this becomes REAL important later:
I had more techs then anyone, i had a massive tech lead making me the top)
I was tring to get a alliance with Hannibal, due to the fact that another 2 guys in the game had a alliance, so i needed one too to keep me on top of the score list. Hannibal was the frist guy under me on the scorebroad and was friendly with me, so i thought why not, but this is when the strange stuff starts happening. He said he didnt like me, which was odd because he was friendly with me, so i WB a bit to get him to like me even more, however:
Hannibal: He havent shared a war or a defenvie pact long enougth.
So i declare on my (now fomer) friend Louis and have him figth along.

The war was hard and it was costly, so when i close to finishing Louis:
Alliance?
Hannibal: Not long enough war...

However, A mixed bellsing came upon me,

Louis vassels to shaka and, in turn, delcared on me and Hannibal.

The good part: a longer war together means more time for a Alliance

The bad part: Shaka had more military units than ANYONE

so i was killing off the few french that remained when my bigest stack got traped in a Native American Culture bang on a city a just captured, Native americans USED TO be Louises vassel, but he set him free to vassel to shaka (Louis wanted to vassel! not Sitting bull). One very weak civ traping my largest stack in culture? Just delcare, get out and peace again, simple rigth? But unknown to me, Sitting Bull vasseled to to the alliance i told you about earlier, so i was figthing agensit almost the ENTIRE WORLD! Tring to get that alliance with Hannibal see now that it is important for my servival now,

Hannibal:.............we just dont like you enough.....
Me:

And even more r*tarded, a few turns later

*Hannibal has made a alliance with KUBLAI KHAN

Me:

Also, I wasnt even aware that they even LIKED eachother
So he chose a person really low on the scoreboard and that he didnt even like agasit a person whos almost at the top of the score borad, about to win, and really liked!
So the following events went like this: i said F*** you all, Spawned a ten thousand nukes and declared on EVERONE (Expept for washington who i also liked)







and Ironicly i won a space race victory...


(the lesson i have learned: Never try make a alliance, it will screw your game up badly)

Spawned a ten thousand nukes and declared on EVERONE

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That many nukes is very inefficient. I suggest you go learn the basics some more and study up on the civ manual.

My sister tried to do this with washington. Suddenly. "Washington allies with pacal" The worst civ out there. IS IT ALL CONNECTED?!

Were you the most powerful Civ in the world? If I remember from Mad Scientists' "FDR's Dream" the AI won't make a permanent alliance with you if you're the most powerful in the world militarily. Admittedly, that was the only game I tried to get a permanent alliance.

There are a lot of ways the AI cheats. Read some of TMIT's posts - his anger at some of the cheats shows through in his posts.

Ataxerxes said:

Were you the most powerful Civ in the world? If I remember from Mad Scientists' "FDR's Dream" the AI won't make a permanent alliance with you if you're the most powerful in the world militarily. Admittedly, that was the only game I tried to get a permanent alliance.

There are a lot of ways the AI cheats. Read some of TMIT's posts - his anger at some of the cheats shows through in his posts.

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Yes, i was, but as i said, Hannibal was rigth under me in score!

Well - I understand your frustration, but not your complaint.

Had I been Hannibal, apparently in a strong position myself (at least score-wise), I certainly wouldn't have allied with anyone _above_ me. Instead I would have looked for someone a bit weaker than me, and allied with that nation, so that I'm the stronger partner. Which is apparently exactly what hannibal did.

Had I been Hannibal, I also certainly wouldn't have allied with someone who was at war with (almost) the entire world - way too dangerous.If he _had_ made an alliance with you while you were being dogpiled and in a weak position, now this would have been ******** ...

The mistake that brought you into this situation - declaring war on half the world - really was your own and you can't blame the results on any AI. From what you described, I actually expected Sitting Bull to be Shaka's vassal, and you actually could have foreseen that. Sitting Bull was Louis' vassal, so he was probably weaker than Louis. Still, Louis and Sitting Bull together couldn't stand against Shaka. Then, Louis capitulates. Sitting Bull gets freed from Louis, but he's still at war with Shaka, and Louis (as Shaka's vassal) will immediately declare war on him too. So Sitting Bull now faces the overwhelming enemy (Shaka) plus his former master (Louis) together, while probably being weaker than each of the two alone. Therefore, he'll probably capitulate quickly. It happens pretty often.

I don't recall if vassals are shown directly under their masters on the scoreboard in unmodded BtS. if yes, then I suggest to check the scoreboard in such situations. If not, then I recommend the BUG mod, which will make such developments harder to overlook. The mod lets you customize the scoreboard, and also informs you with messages when a civ gets vassalized or breaks free.

There may be other factors involved (like the ones Ataxerxes mentioned), but I do think you brought this unto you yourself, or at least contributed a good deal towards it. But we live and learn - have better success next time.

Psyringe said:

Well - I understand your frustration, but not your complaint.

Had I been Hannibal, apparently in a strong position myself (at least score-wise), I certainly wouldn't have allied with anyone _above_ me. Instead I would have looked for someone a bit weaker than me, and allied with that nation, so that I'm the stronger partner. Which is apparently exactly what hannibal did.

Had I been Hannibal, I also certainly wouldn't have allied with someone who was at war with (almost) the entire world - way too dangerous.If he _had_ made an alliance with you while you were being dogpiled and in a weak position, now this would have been ******** ...

The mistake that brought you into this situation - declaring war on half the world - really was your own and you can't blame the results on any AI. From what you described, I actually expected Sitting Bull to be Shaka's vassal, and you actually could have foreseen that. Sitting Bull was Louis' vassal, so he was probably weaker than Louis. Still, Louis and Sitting Bull together couldn't stand against Shaka. Then, Louis capitulates. Sitting Bull gets freed from Louis, but he's still at war with Shaka, and Louis (as Shaka's vassal) will immediately declare war on him too. So Sitting Bull now faces the overwhelming enemy (Shaka) plus his former master (Louis) together, while probably being weaker than each of the two alone. Therefore, he'll probably capitulate quickly. It happens pretty often.

I don't recall if vassals are shown directly under their masters on the scoreboard in unmodded BtS. if yes, then I suggest to check the scoreboard in such situations. If not, then I recommend the BUG mod, which will make such developments harder to overlook. The mod lets you customize the scoreboard, and also informs you with messages when a civ gets vassalized or breaks free.

There may be other factors involved (like the ones Ataxerxes mentioned), but I do think you brought this unto you yourself, or at least contributed a good deal towards it. But we live and learn - have better success next time.

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Umm.... Hannibal was WITH ME in those wars! We were on the same side!
And Sitting bull de-vasseled from Louis to vassel to the Indian/Persian Allanice, and at no point did he even vassel to them!!
and i didnt say anything about my vassel (who was a colony), nor was i planing to vassel anyone else, and i also never said any thing about LOSSING those wars (if anything, i was winning) come to think of it, that intire post is inaccuate to my story and (to an extent) the game in general! Read harder next time!

(P.S. if i had to chose, i think i'd make a Allicance with the strongest, highest, and most likely to win civ.)

johnfalcon99977 said:

Umm.... Hannibal was WITH ME in those wars! We were on the same side!

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Just because two people are fighting the same enemy doesn't mean they are allies. It makes it more likely but not a certainty.

And Sitting bull de-vasseled from Louis to vassel to the Indian/Persian Allanice, and at no point did he even vassel to them!!

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Unless Ind/Per were also fighting a war against SB it's almost impossible for that secenario to happen, a)SB will capitulate to whoever is doing the most damage, and b)Ind/Per would be in a war against Shaka, if they accepted such a cap (and one thing you don't want is war against a powerful Shaka). If it was a dogpile the SB would cap to whoever did a.

and i didnt say anything about my vassel (who was a colony), nor was i planing to vassel anyone else, and i also never said any thing about LOSSING those wars (if anything, i was winning) come to think of it, that intire post is inaccuate to my story and (to an extent) the game in general! Read harder next time!

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Why are you complaining about another user not reading what you said when you've just demonstrated an example of doing the same? Psyringe just detailed why SB went on his knees to Shaka, and then said about the master/vassal grouping on the score in the bottom-right of the screen. Also if you've just declared the whole world on any level of Prince or above, you'll get your rump handed to you on a plate (probably noble too).

(P.S. if i had to chose, i think i'd make a Allicance with the strongest, highest, and most likely to win civ.)

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Put it this way, if you were 2nd in score (and probably high in power too, definiteley with the potential) and No.1 decided to declare on everyone, what would you do?
A) Side with No.1 your biggest competition, or
B) Dogpile, get large slice of undefended land and coast to victory?

Personally I'd do B and steamroll from there.

johnfalcon99977 said:

Umm.... Hannibal was WITH ME in those wars! We were on the same side!

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Yes. i never said anything different. You said that you were fighting on the same side, against about half the world. You wanted a binding alliance with Hannibal. I said that I probably wouldn't do that had I been Hannibal. Actually I'd rather tried to get to a peace treaty with the others instead of permanently binding myself to the side with the weaker military, and then find an alliance partner for myself.

johnfalcon99977 said:

And Sitting bull de-vasseled from Louis to vassel to the Indian/Persian Allanice, and at no point did he even vassel to them!!

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So there are Indians and Persians in the game - you never mentioned that before. Okay. You previously said that "unknown to me, Sitting Bull vasseled to to the alliance" (which I assumed to be a Shaka-led alliance, but now I learn that there are other players in the game that you didn't mention before). Now you say that Sitting Bull at no point even vassaled to that alliance. I'm sorry, but you're really contradicting yourself here and it doesn't make a lot of sense, unfortunately.

johnfalcon99977 said:

and i didnt say anything about my vassel (who was a colony)

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So there's yet another player in the game which you didn't mention before. I don't know why you do it know though, because you make it sound as if I was talking about a vassal of yours, and I certainly didn't.

johnfalcon99977 said:

come to think of it, that intire post is inaccuate to my story and (to an extent) the game in general! Read harder next time!

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To be frank, I read your post very hard, and several times, because - no offense -I found it extremely hard to comprehend on several levels (orthography, grammar, line of thought). That's not a problem usually, I try to understand it nevertheless, and if misunderstandings happen, they can be worked out. I'm perfectly willing to invest the effort to read not-so-comprehensible posts.

However, trying to decipher what you meant and then getting blamed for a misunderstanding that happened, and being told to "Read harder!" because I wasn't aware of players you didn't even mention, is pretty tough, I must say.

Anyway. My point was that you committed a blunder and that you could have prevented that rather easily. That point still stands, it's irrelevant for that point whether Sitting Bull vassalized to Shaka or to India/Persia. The point is that you can easily check his status beforehand so that you don't get into a world war you don't want. And in case you're a bit forgetful and don't remember to do such checks, I recommended a mod that makes them harder to overlook. in any case, committing such blunders and refusing to learn from them, while at the same time calling the AI "********" in a game where you even cheated with the worldbuilder, is - again - pretty tough.

However, you're of course free to enjoy the game in any way you want, and therefore I won't bother you anymore with unwanted advice. You're absolutely free to call the AI ********. I do disagree with you, but I won't bother you with further discussion. Peace.

johnfalcon99977 said:

i didnt say anything about my vassel (who was a colony)

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You had a colony? Colony = vassal.
Hannibal needs to be friendly with you AND your colony.
This is probably the reason why he didn't want to sign a PA.

Brian Shanahan said:

Unless Ind/Per were also fighting a war against SB it's almost impossible for that secenario to happen, a)SB will capitulate to whoever is doing the most damage, and b)Ind/Per would be in a war against Shaka, if they accepted such a cap (and one thing you don't want is war against a powerful Shaka). If it was a dogpile the SB would cap to whoever did a.

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There may be a chance that SB broke free from Louis, and then vassaled (not capitulated) to India/Persia in order to protect him from Shaka. It's not very likely though because it either requires Sitting Bull to make peace with Shaka (who already had the most units, and by then perhaps also had Louis as his vassal, so Shaka was most likely in a position where he didn't need to make peace with SB), or it requires that India/Persia disliked Shaka so much already that let SB draw them into the war against Shaka. But to be honest, it's really not clear to me what has been going on in this game, and since John's second post seems to contradict the first one with regard to Sitting Bull, my understanding of that part gets fuzzier rather than clearer.

Psyringe said:

So there are Indians and Persians in the game - you never mentioned that before. Okay. You previously said that "unknown to me, Sitting Bull vasseled to to the alliance" (which I assumed to be a Shaka-led alliance, but now I learn that there are other players in the game that you didn't mention before). Now you say that Sitting Bull at no point even vassaled to that alliance. I'm sorry, but you're really contradicting yourself here and it doesn't make a lot of sense, unfortunately.

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I read that part of his post as him assuming that SB once he got out from under Louis would automatically vassal to Ind/Per, in fact it seems he thought that was the reason SB de-vassalised. But the fact that the alliance he was talking about was never enunciated really messes this up, as when he mentioned them the first time, it sounded like him, Hannibal, and the other 2. Really confusing, especially as I'm brewing a headcold.

I need to be more clear about what i am saying . here is a part re-written to make more sense:

Ok, i declare on Louis, who had SB as a vassel and no other wars, and i bring Hannibal with me in the war. After i beat down on Louis (Mostly because of superior tech) He de-vassels SB so Louis can vassel to Shaka. I end my war with SB as quickly as possible. Later my bigest stack is traped inside SB's borders because i took a city that was afterwards serounded by SB's culture, i had no Open borders with him, so i declare on him to get my stack out, but during the time i wasnt at war with him he vasseled to the Ind/Per Allicence, so i was at war with them too. Shaka did not have a allicence with anyone at the time (but he did have a bunch of vassels)

That should clear up SOME confustion, if not all.

Ah okay, now I get it. Louis vassaled to Shaka to get Shaka's protection against you and Hannibal. This automatically set SB free, who was at this point only at war with you and Hannibal. You made peace with SB, which allowed SB to vassalize to India/Persia (they probably wouldn't have wanted him if he had still been at war with you).

My mistake was to assume that Louis was at war with Shaka and capitulated to him. This was indeed something you never said and which must have sprung purely from my imagination.

(Note: It's still not surprising that SB vassaled to India/Persia. He was probably weaker than Shaka/Louis, and weaker than Hannibal/you as well, so he was looking for protection.)

Psyringe said:

Ah okay, now I get it. Louis vassaled to Shaka to get Shaka's protection against you and Hannibal. This automatically set SB free, who was at this point only at war with you and Hannibal. You made peace with SB, which allowed SB to vassalize to India/Persia (they probably wouldn't have wanted him if he had still been at war with you).

My mistake was to assume that Louis was at war with Shaka and capitulated to him. This was indeed something you never said and which must have sprung purely from my imagination.

(Note: It's still not surprising that SB vassaled to India/Persia. He was probably weaker than Shaka/Louis, and weaker than Hannibal/you as well, so he was looking for protection.)

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NOW you get it.

Now recaping, i made ALOT of bad choices in that war, the bigest was getting into it in the frist place! now i have a super world war because on a diffrent note, Washington also joined me and had a few vassels

I am not really good at war.