The new Improvement System in Wildmana (bye bye cottage spam)

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by [to_xp]Gekko

sounds pretty much the same to me, except that WM Malakim can choose what kind of specialist they want their free specialist to be, no?

anyway, the new Grigori stuff in RifE 1.3 is awesome

Not at all the same codewise, and not at all the same implementation wise.

Big difference between a farm granting a Farmer specialist, and a farm granting any specialist.

[Fafnir13]

Farms causing unhappiness is just...odd. If you want to get up to happy cap, you need farms. But if you build famrs, your happy cap lowers. Pastoral people aren't exactly known for being unhappy either.
There's got to be a less arbitrary way to balance it. Although, in my opinion, this whole system seems rather arbitrary. There's really no reason why farms can't be built adjacent to each other. Just look at any of the real world farmlands.

[rabican]

It is non-simulation game. Everything is more or less arbitrary. I bet they said the same thing when chess was first made: "what the hell is this? This horseman dude just walks over my stuff like it ain't even there! yo dawg, that is so arbitrary, just look at the real world horses. They don't walk over people like that , people get maimed if horsies walk over them. This is bs"


The improvement system isn't exactly locked yet.

[Fafnir13]

Originally Posted by rabican

It is non-simulation game. Everything is more or less arbitrary.

Not really. It is simulating a fantasy setting using the core concepts and assumptions associated with turn based strategy. Abrupt departures from that are not only jarring but risky as things are the way they are for a reason.
Not to say that Sephi should only stick with the tried and true. We wouldn't even have FFH if people did that.

I just have problems with the basic framework as laid out.

Maybe farms shouldn't be primaries. As secondaries, they could add food to adjacent city tiles and certain improvements. This would keep farms from completely dominating the landscape while still allowing them to be built like farms are built.

[Sephi]

historically, a major amount of revolts have been peasant revolts.

this website sums up a few reasons.

Farming a thousand years ago was very different from what it is today. Medieval farmers earned just enough to survive - this combined with the 12 hours per day an average farmer had to work - made them very poor and unhappy.

http://medieval-castles.org/index.ph...he_middle_ages

[Fafnir13]

By that ruling, any improvement should be causing unhappiness. Fishing and mining weren't exactly easy jobs. Unhappiness is mostly fomented by how the peasants are treated and the current economic situation.

[Jenaelha]

Originally Posted by Sephi

historically, a major amount of revolts have been peasant revolts.

True enough, but can you imagine the unrest if they weren't producing enough food to eat? You need farms to support a city's population or they'll leave. It seems to me these effects (happiness for having food vs unhappiness for producing) cancel each other out. Basically the same point for other improvements.

[squadbroken]

Originally Posted by Sephi

historically, a major amount of revolts have been peasant revolts.

Isn't that covered by "It's too crowded"/"We cannot forget your cruel oppression"?

[Fafnir13]

Not to mention war weariness. That was always a big concerns for peasant who, during certain eras, were drafted as battle fodder.

[Gaminic]

Originally Posted by Sephi

historically, a major amount of revolts have been peasant revolts.

this website sums up a few reasons.



http://medieval-castles.org/index.ph...he_middle_ages

Actually that's pretty much exactly how farming is now.

[PhoenixMuse]

Originally Posted by Fafnir13

By that ruling, any improvement should be causing unhappiness. Fishing and mining weren't exactly easy jobs. Unhappiness is mostly fomented by how the peasants are treated and the current economic situation.

That would imply that how much happiness or unhappiness is caused by an improvement should be dependent on a civic. I sorta like that thought.

My full suggestions on the improvement thing is here: http://www.epicdestiny.site90.com/ph...100&p=582#p582

[Darkness]

Why do you guys want to prevent big cities and much-improved lands? Isn't that part of the fun in CIV? Watching your cities and empire develop from one village to a big, cultivated empire?

[tesb]

that is quite open to what you understand with big cities:
in my games a medium city has about the size of ~20
in the end game a big city is close 50 ,which is just overkill imho.
but reducing city size is not the intend. (just look at the op and you can see why things were changed)

as for concerns about the way sephi wants to achieve this, i can only say:
many things will change. this is a very early iteration. you basically formulate the goals -> put in a system to achieve those and if it does not work you try an other way. it is very clear that the current system is not optimal but you have to give it some time, since it is only sephi who is working on this project.

[Darkness]

The first post basically tells me that a number of terrain improvements have negative consequences. Unhappyness and unhealthyness. Which means you either have to leave a lot of terrain unimproved, or there has to be a balancing mechanism somewhere that I've missed?

After all, additional unhappyness and unhealthyness means smaller cities, right?

[Valkrionn]

They intend you to build fewer improvements, but those improvements are far stronger. It more or less balances out, it just leaves your empire looking more empty (which some like, some dislike) and you more vulnerable to pillaging.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

how does that make you MORE vulnerable to pillaging?

[Valkrionn]

Fewer, stronger improvements means those improvements are inherently much more valuable.

Let's say you have a farm, with +3. You require this farm to support your city adequately, right? Under the new system, you won't have backup farms; If you did, you'd be suffering extra unhappiness.

If that farm is pillaged out from under you.... You have no backup tile for the citizen to work. you have become short on food, city shrinks more than it would have in the old system.

Pillaging has been buffed and nerfed. It has a stronger effect on the enemy, but unless pillage profits have been buffed won't provide much to your own economy.


Of course, this should all be taken with a grain of salt: It's my analysis of a system I have not played. But unless there is something I am totally missing, I think it's pretty accurate about Pillaging being stronger.

[tesb]

because if one is gone it has a bigger impact.

edit: ninjad by the evil hamster

[[to_xp]Gekko]

true, but with less improvements it also means it's easier to defend the ones you do have, and less stuff to be pillaged for the offending party. it also means that most of the improvements are less important, so you can more easily defend your primary ones. pillaging has indeed been both buffed and nerfed, so it should be fine

[Darkness]

I really, really hope this will be an option to turn on/off in the custom game start screen. This is one of those things people will either love or hate. Best give them the option to choose...