Are the UUs and UBs intentionally balanced?

[swilhelm73]

This came up a bit as an aside in another thread, but are the UUs and UBs intentionally (at least somewhat) balanced?

So the Romans, for example, have one of the top UUs and an average to poor UB.

The HRE has, IMO the best UB, and a poor UU.

A lot of this is situational of course since say the Salon and the Ger are geared towards different win conditions, but, overall, I can see their being some of this as noted above.

[r_rolo1]

Counter example :

Inca

QED

[AutomatedTeller]

yeah, I really never understood how firaxis left inca the way they were - I mean, they made them non-aggressive, which is good... but left the C1 for the inca, which just meant that you needed longer to build a rax to pump them out.

but yes - i believe that firaxis tries to balance civs.

[Jerrymander]

Probably not, as Rolo points out that Inca has a great UU and a great UB, whereas Khmer has a mediocre UB and an extremely situational UU.

Or Portugal, with an uninspiring UU and a terrible UB.

This could be argued to be offset somewhat by the leader traits, but Inca once again has one great and one good trait and two great uniques.

[plasmacannon]

I think Firaxis did all of this to get us to play different empires that what we would have expected.
In Civ4 The Inca were made powerful to be able to succeed at many tasks, yet, in reality, Spain conquered most of Central and South America.
Yet their UUs are some 5000 years apart?
The Inca had gold, but, not the technology to be a large stronge empire, and Firaxis put them in a position to be such.
While an Incan terrace is interesting to see in real life, should it have a +2 culture in game terms? or possibly a +1 food bonus?
As huge as they are, sculpting mountains, I am surprised they are not built outside of a city, like a windmill option for them to gain +1 food per tile if built on a hill.

As far as balanced goes, I think, we can all agree that some Empires are balanced, others are not.
The Celts and Native Americans get the poor end of the stick, yet many like Gallics (I know I do) and N.A.'s Philo trait.
Where Firaxis failed even more is to distinguish the Navies of these 52 leaders very much.
Kublai Khan had early versions explosive grenades to hurl from his ships or by hand for his troops or catapults, yet, he gets +2xp for horse archers.
Yes, they were good, but, a secondary UU keeps coming up for many empires.
Korea had their "Turtle Ship" coveren in metal spikes to ram ships and defend better vs attackers.
China had huge ships, like mobile castles filled with xbows, as an early battleship.
Greek navies were better trained than Carthaginian crews. I suppose this is Combat1 or 2, but, Greece would need a bonus somewhere to show this.
2 French leaders have IND trait, but, Greece doesn't? How messed up is that? There are more wonders represented in Civ4 in the Greek region, than in France.
I still don't agree that Ancient Egypt, Ancient Babylonians or Sumerians don't have a religion represented here. Yet, many of our current religions stem from their beginnings. Adam and Eve, The great Flood, winged servants (angels) etc. all have their basis from them, yet, Firaxis ignored adding several religions to the group. Probably, for simplicity sake.

As people know more of their history, they can notice these things that are left out.
I think they need to create something similar to the worker ability to build the colony for resourse gains, from Civ3. The fort does this in Civ4, but, when the cultural area of another empire's radius engulf's the resourse, we still lose access to the resourse, even if we have an army in a fort defending the resourse, and every tile between it and our cultural border, thus insuring trade of this resourse. Like Forting or Mining Iron just across the border 1 tile and bringing it back to the closest city. It should be a military option to conduct these types of missions.

[CornPlanter]

@ Plasmacannon:

In The Jurassic Park the novel, scientists cloning dinosaurs realized they looked not at all like people expected them to. Which is only natural because people have built their image of dinosaurs just from bones, etc. So they did some gene engineering to make them look more like "pop culture" version. They were afraid that otherwise people would perceive dinos as "unrealistic".

I think this is exactly the case with Civ. While many players here are history fans, many more of them are not.

It's not the first case where reality is unrealistic.

[TLF]

OT, but

"The Inca had gold, but, not the technology to be a large strong empire"

Gold is only worth something to a civilization that decides it's worth something.
You really can't do anything with it.

[plasmacannon]

@ CornPlanter: I guess I am hoping for more depth from a Civ6, because, I know it won't be there for Civ5.

And for Jurassic Park (if this was the same in the book as the movie) the cloners used DNA from other animals, lizards chickens etc, to make up for "missing" parts to construct their dinosaurs. This could have altered their appearance to not look dinosaur-like, from our modern perspective.
However, I get your point.
Of course, your tagline should read Fiction is unrealistic.
as Jurassic Park was a Fiction novel.

[Bowsling]

How can you call the Landsknecht a poor UU?

[r_rolo1]

Because it is It is not better than a regular pike in the pike duties and will still struggle hard against maces

[swilhelm73]

Originally Posted by r_rolo1

Because it is It is not better than a regular pike in the pike duties and will still struggle hard against maces

Yep

6+100%=8+50%

The one thing they do well is escort siege units since the AI generally doesn't want to attack them. But that's a bit light for a UU.

[plasmacannon]

Originally Posted by Bowsling

How can you call the Landsknecht a poor UU?

Some on here will get picky about this unit, but, I agree with you. My friend here does as well.
He and I have had great sucess with the Landsknecht unit, when used properly, and not overly in roles the basic unit was not designed for.

When one looks at how one designs a spearman to fight horse archers and elephants.
One can add Shock to the spearman and the AI will still defend with mounted units, thus going splat.
Yet, is will do more damage to other melee units than without this promotion.

Now, consider the Landsknecht in the same manner.
Is it better than a regular Pikeman? Heck yes!
A regular pikeman is weaker vs axemen and equal to swordsmen.
Where the Landsknecht can defeat both of these units.
It will still do well vs Knights (the mounted of its time) and deal significant damage to the maceman foolish enough to attack it on a forest tile.

As defenders they do well, as offensive units vs. pre-macemen units (in instances where you tech up faster than you opponent) it will do well.
When maceman come around, it should be accompanied by a maceman, xbow or knight. It will usually lose vs macemen, unless you are have many more promotions than it. But, like I mentioned before, it can beat a maceman, of low promotions when defending in a forest. Especially, when fully fortified in a city or on a hill.
So, just jump in the forest when AI macemen come around, watch the maceman go splat, and heal up.
A great solo unit for observing the enemy/fogbusting. I would compare it to the Greek Phalanx on its flexibility, because, of its added defense vs. the unit designed to take it out.

[the343danny]

As defenders they get destroyed by siege. As offence they get matched by macemen (actually it isnt 12-12 because of how the combat system works) and wrecked by longbows and xbows, which the AI has no trouble making lots of. And what the point of having 10 units in your army for defence, when they can hardly attack cities? Knights walk over units at that age besides the pikes and elephants. If landsknechts are chosen to be the defenders vs melee, who would be there to defend versus the knights? Landsknechts will be dead or damaged, and unless you have war elephants (in that case why bother with pikes in the first place?) you will just become sitting ducks to their knights.

[plasmacannon]

Originally Posted by the343danny

As defenders they get destroyed by siege. As offence they get matched by macemen (actually it isnt 12-12 because of how the combat system works) and wrecked by longbows and xbows, which the AI has no trouble making lots of. And what the point of having 10 units in your army for defence, when they can hardly attack cities? Knights walk over units at that age besides the pikes and elephants. If landsknechts are chosen to be the defenders vs melee, who would be there to defend versus the knights? Landsknechts will be dead or damaged, and unless you have war elephants (in that case why bother with pikes in the first place?) you will just become sitting ducks to their knights.

OK, let me see if I can break this down.
1) most defenders will eventually be destroyed by seige.
2) Pikemen were not designed to take on macemen, why would a Landsknecht? A Landsknechts will do better that a pikeman, if needed, vs. a maceman though.
3) vs macemen stay in a forest.
vs xbows which are designed to take out melee, of course, you will lose too. This is where multiple unit types will defend your stack. Have the Knight I mentioned and kill the xbow.
"wrecked by longbows" they both have the same strength, so, Landsknechts will win defending a city, because, they are fully fortified. Don't attack with Landsknechts vs. longbows without seige.
4) "10 units in your army for defence", You don't need that many, lol, how many knights are you expecting to come across?
5) "Knights walk over units at that age besides the pikes and elephants." Exactly. And that is the main unit it is still targeted against.
6) "If landsknechts are chosen to be the defenders vs melee, who would be there to defend versus the knights?" Who says you would only have one or the other? Bring enough Landsknechts WITH your macemen on attacks to defend them vs knights and occasional lower sword/axe. Also use them to mop up weakened units until your macemen are healed.
7) "Landsknechts will be dead or damaged, and unless you have war elephants (in that case why bother with pikes in the first place?) you will just become sitting ducks to their knights"
Landsknechts can defeat a knight. A Byz cataphract will give it some trouble. If you don't have Ivory, we use Pikemen and Landsknechts to defeat Knights. If you have elephants, you are still allowed to bring both in your attacks.
An elephant won't be killed by an enemy pikeman if you bring your Landsknecht with it.
A stack of say 8 macemen at least half with CR3, with 6 Trebs, 2 elephants, 2 Landsknechts, 1 xbow, 1 longbow, would be a tough stack to get rid of.
Especially, if you have a hill or forest next to the city being attacked.

Again, I am not saying it is the best unit in the game. When used properly, and accompanied by other units, each unit defends the other and the stack will have to be catapulted by the enemy to be taken out. Of course, those cats have to get past the macemen.

[CornPlanter]

And for Jurassic Park (if this was the same in the book as the movie) the cloners used DNA from other animals, lizards chickens etc, to make up for "missing" parts to construct their dinosaurs. This could have altered their appearance to not look dinosaur-like, from our modern perspective.

Movie is a crap compared to the book. We have just silly action coupled with special effects. Book went deep into the philosophy of science, morality issues, philosophy in general, et cetera. And yes there was explicitly stated in the book that dinos were genetically altered to meet the peoples expectations. Only because otherwise people would perceive real dinos as unrealistic.

While it is a fiction ofcourse, it illustrates the "reality is unrealistic" point perfectly. I could have come up with examples from real reality ofcourse, it's just that Jurassic Park example is my favorite one. But if you read the link at the bottom, you will find a plenty of examples from a real life.

A regular pikeman is weaker vs axemen and equal to swordsmen.
Where the Landsknecht can defeat both of these units.

If you have a tech lead like this you don't need any special units to win. Regulars do just as fine.

[AutomatedTeller]

maces have a DISADVANTAGE vs. landsknecht - C1 Mace vs. C1 Landsknecht is 8.8 on 9.6 - there is no open field unit before knights with that sort of ratio in the clear. Lands on Mace is 6.6 on 5.87

Landsknecht are, essentially, 1 stop defensive units (until crossbows, of course)

[plasmacannon]

Originally Posted by CornPlanter

...
"A regular pikeman is weaker vs axemen and equal to swordsmen.
Where the Landsknecht can defeat both of these units. " (quoting me)

If you have a tech lead like this you don't need any special units to win. Regulars do just as fine.

True, but, one has to run up one tech path or the other.
It one goes for macemen, then, one doesn't have Trebs yet.
If one goes for Trebs, one will get Landsknecht.
HRE will have their swords/axe counter unit sooner.
I can tech to macemen and upgrade those along the way to an opponent's empire.
I usually don't have many spearmen to do the opposite with, and there is no upgrade to Trebs.

If HRE has done some early fighting, their IMP trait has provided them with a GG or 2. So, more of their forces will have an extra promotion.

Besides, Landsknecht just have cooler uniforms, than, pikemen.

[Bowsling]

Now Theocracy+Vassalage, rax, and a settled GG or 2 and you've got yourself some monster landsknechts.
I recall with glee when I played HRE, got the Machinery slingshot then researched Engineering,
running around with these landsknechts that it would take several of the enemy's best units to take down one of my own.
The most fun came when Boudica decided she wanted to attack me.
I send my landsknechts up to Scandinavia to meet her stack of chariots, horse archers, gallic warriors, an archer and a spearman. My 2 landskechts were woodsman two, and the Celts had to cross a river onto my forest tile. Needless to say, got a Great General that turn.

It's the only time of seen an AI stack run away

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Bowsling

It's the only time of seen an AI stack run away

I had a fight once where the AI really should have run away. I'd left my home borders largely undefended while fighting overseas wars, so the AI drops a stack off with a huge list of probably about 20-30 caravels + galleons...and then decides to attack the destroyer I'd rushed over there a couple turns too late (as you can tell by the tech disparity, this game was already basically over). Every single ship attacked my destroyer and was destroyed. Every one! Even that last caravel, which must have known it was doomed. Poor thing.

[Iranon]

Landsknechts are misplaced as well as fairly weak. Replacing crossbows with a multi-type counter would be more attractive for non-Protective leaders.