[BTS] SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

I'm also not sure why we even need frigates for Gandhi. The galley landings to Delhi, Madras, and Calcutta can all be achieved without exposing our galleys, because they can hide in nearby cities. Plus, Gandhi has to have threatening tris/caravels close enough, which we can also monitor with advance reconnaissance.

[mdy]

We currently have 22 siege units. This is enough if we lose 2 per city in the subsequent campaign, which seems reasonable. Why build units that we do not need?

Gandhi also has galleons. The chances of him having none within strinking distance of either stack is very small, and we would have to make the decision on upgrading them before we could get the intelligence on his unit locations if we put espionage on Rooservelt.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by mdy

The problem with building grenadiers for a Rooservelt campaign is that every grenadier we build is 63g we don't have to support our economy. It seems absurd to build a lot of units when we can fight the Gandhi war with the ones we have already got.

It's not 63base hammers for a gren.

Gren(nationhood) = 45base h
Gren(bureacracy) = 37base h
Gren(+milit Acad) = 31base h
Gren(+ factory/p) = 25base h

I guess 11XP/unit is better than -6base-hpt, so we should settle the GG.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by mdy

We currently have 22 siege units. This is enough if we lose 2 per city in the subsequent campaign, which seems reasonable. Why build units that we do not need?

Gandhi also has galleons. The chances of him having none within strinking distance of either stack is very small, and we would have to make the decision on upgrading them before we could get the intelligence on his unit locations if we put espionage on Rooservelt.

You only need intelligence near Madras and Calcutta, which we can get with a scout trasported by teh first galley there or by the galley or tris there in advance. We'll have cities nearby so we can upgrade right then.

[LowtherCastle]

Also, units that are working as spies will teleport toward our closest city, so they'll probaly teleport straight into the city.

[bcool]

Thanks for exploring the ideas to switch religions. So switching Roosy to Confu is still on the table after we steal techs from him (because the costs of stealing are higher if he is in Confu?)

Gren(nationhood) = 45base h
Gren(bureacracy) = 37base h
Gren(+milit Acad) = 31base h
Gren(+ factory/p) = 25base h

Military Science for a 6-12 hammer bonus per grenadier that we probably won't need doesn't sound that compelling to me.

Settling the GG in Moscow gives us 9 and 2 xp per unit. Which puts us over 10 xp for new units. That seems more valuable to me especially since the next GG isn't around the corner is it?
And by not getting it we can avoid a war with Mao, avoid gifting Bing Mao to Mao and further pissing off Roosy. Getting him to pleased perhaps and avoiding a war with him. That would be worth far more than a military academy.

I think getting eyes on Roosy's research with 1 turn of 100% espionage during Nationhood with the intention to eventually steal riflery and make better decisions about our research in the mean time with advanced knowledge of Roosy techs would make sense to me. If Roosy is researching Astro, for example, then we can wait to trade for it. Or if he is researching something else we want to steal then we know to invest more espionage and/or spies.That knowledge now is worth the 1 turn cost of 100% espionage in my mind.

[mdy]

Does any one mind if I start the golden age now? It would make it easier to se how viable BCools idea of going to 100% espionage on rooservelt is.

[bcool]

I don't mind, I think we are committed to starting this turn.

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

Since we're planning to gift Bing-Mao shortly, we'll know the answer to that and can think about switching him.

As in this turn, right? Bing-Mao is an iceball and is costing us a lot every turn we hang on to it.

I'm opposed to 100% epp this turn. This will delay RR by 1 turn and is not worth it, in my opinion. Mining Inc is one turn earlier is worth more than knowing what Roosevelt is researching, something that we can find out passively in 5 turns...

I'm also opposed to stealing Astronomy. In my experience, the AI usually get it at about the same time. It's a good bet that Roosevelt is researching it now...

@mdy Sure, fire off the golden age. No one has said "No" to this and it will make your planning a lot easier.

[LowtherCastle]

FIne with me.

[bcool]

I'm opposed to 100% epp this turn. This will delay RR by 1 turn and is not worth it, in my opinion. Mining Inc is one turn earlier is worth more than knowing what Roosevelt is researching, something that we can find out passively in 5 turns...

I disagree, with the gold of at least 2 more city captures we will be able to finish RR on schedule. We aren't putting any research into RR this turn, so I assume you are saying we won't have the gold for the RR run. I think with the gold of at least 2 more mature-city captures we will be able to finish RR on schedule.

Knowing what an AI is researching could be very valuable. And we will need the espionage anyways for riflery steal at the very least. And it takes advantage of the last turn of Nationhood for at least a while.

[mdy]

It looks like going to 100% espionage could jepodise our chances of getting railroad on schedule so I don't think we should do it.We only really need to see Rooservelts research by T+5 when we get railroad. We can do this if we run 20% espionage for 1T and then rely on passive espionage for the next 4 turns which looks far more doable. It will also set us up for a rifling steal, and to flip him to Confunicism. As we have already invested about half of the needed beakers into Astronomy espionage is far less efficient than normal, so perhaps this is for the best. Running 20% espionage for 1T also means we can get rid of spies in our peripheral cities.

If we were planning a tech steal/religion flip how many spies should we have in Troy?

[LowtherCastle]

I don't know if you noticed, mdy, but Vlad EP missions are cheaper than Troy. We should uses both cities and Vlad for more expensive ones.

We've been successful with 2 spies per tech but safer is more, obviously.

[Mitchum]

OK. If it doesn't delay RR, then it will delay Assembly Line. Will knowing what Roosevelt is researching five turns sooner radically change anything we're doing in our current plan? Would it change our tech stealing plans in such a way that we couldn't do the same thing in five turns with ask of the "free" epp we get?

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

I don't know if you noticed, mdy, but Vlad EP missions are cheaper than Troy. We should uses both cities and Vlad for more expensive ones.

We've been successful with 2 spies per tech but safer is more, obviously.

How do you know the current culture values for each city? Troy has been in revolt for much of my turnset. Also, it may be a bit late to change... Depending on when we plan to steal, the Vlad spy will have 10% less stationary bonus.

[mdy]

If Rooservelt is researching a tech we already know we could gift it to him so he will research a more useful one for us. If he is researching one we don't knoe then we know we should not research it as we will shortly be able to steal it from him. If he is researching assembly line this could save us several hundred beakers.

[mdy]

We would get enough passive espionage by T+6, during which time we would be researching astronomy, so if he is 1-2 T from astronomy we know that we should reseacrh something else straight away. Other than having him reseacrh a useless tech for more turn this is probably the only advantages of using the espionage slider. Maybe this isn't worth it after all?

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Mitchum

How do you know the current culture values for each city? Troy has been in revolt for much of my turnset. Also, it may be a bit late to change... Depending on when we plan to steal, the Vlad spy will have 10% less stationary bonus.

Good point on the revolt. I forgot about that. That makes it tricky, unless we have plenty of spies. Anyway, if we have at least one in each city, then it behooves us to check the price, at the time, before performing the mission.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by mdy

We would get enough passive espionage by T+6, during which time we would be researching astronomy, so if he is 1-2 T from astronomy we know that we should reseacrh something else straight away. Other than having him reseacrh a useless tech for more turn this is probably the only advantages of using the espionage slider. Maybe this isn't worth it after all?

We should be researching RR as soon as we get Steam Power no matter what. Astronomy is 1 millionth as important as RR, because warring with Gandhi is 1 millionth as important as Mining.

[mdy]

That's what I was planning.